Self-responsibility is the gateway to self-sovereignty. What happened to you wasn’t your fault or your choice.. It wasn’t fair.
And yet, your own choice to heal is the only way. That requires radical responsibility. No one can do it for you.
Contrary to what your hurting Inner Child might believe, getting an apology from whoever or whatever hurt you won’t heal you either.
This radical self-responsibility leads to you reclaiming your sovereignty and authenticity. Self-responsibility is the key that unlocks the prison gates and sets you free.
This Week’s Oracle Card:
This Week’s Guest:
Madison Morrigan is a 4x international award winning life coach, facilitator, podcast host and speaker who helps women embody their worth, power and fullness. Centered on self-belonging, sacred self-responsibility, spiritual freedom and full expression, Madison coaches ambitious and creative women as they shed layers of old programming keeping them small and finally come home to their true selves. .
She has her degree in interpersonal communication with an emphasis in psychology from Missouri State University, has a certificate in conflict resolution, meditation and legal relationship mediation, and is a Certified BYCA Coach.
- The Starseed Oracle Deck
- Follow Madison on Instagram
- Work with Madison
- Hiro Boga
- Journey of Souls & Destiny of Souls by Dr. Michael Newton
- The Wisdom of Trauma Documentary with Gabor Mate
In this episode, Madison and I…
- share how our early relationships with our parents shape our sense of self and self-sovereignty
- share Madison’s experiences in Evangelical Christianity and why she was obsess with “abusive theology”
- talk about shedding away the layers of life and trauma that smother our sense of self
- discuss the differences between a permeable self and a stable self
- talk about binary belief systems and how we give away our power and outsource our sovereignty to these systems
- expand on each person’s existence and personal identity as a manifestation of Spirit
- discuss how we are conditioned out of personal sovereignty
- explain why it’s so important to assert our preferences, boundaries, and choices to maintain our sense of self
- talk about the role of personal choice, boundaries, and self-responsibility in healing trauma
- share the painful emotions and physical symptoms Madison experienced when she wasn’t living in her sovereignty
Belief Beyond the Binary: the course that teaches you how to identify binary belief systems, why your nervous system is so attracted to them, and how to reclaim your personal sovereignty through self-trust and critical thinking.
Hello. Beautiful people. Thank you so much for being here. Maybe you’re noticed that a podcast episode did not publish last week on August 1st. It is the first week since I started the podcast in October of 2020, that I did not publish a new episode and trust me, I felt all kinds of resistance.
I felt like I was going to be letting you down. I felt like I was not going to be meeting your expectations. I felt like you might be disappointed. I was having all kinds of inner critic, ego pain body activation about it, but ultimately I made the decision not to publish it because my family and I went on a much needed little miniature vacation.
We have not gone on vacation as a family in over three years. And so it was. Time. COVID canceled two of our family vacations. My kids are 16 and 17. They’re not getting any younger. Our time with them at home is limited. And it was really important to us to take some time away and intentionally just hang out with our kids and be a family.
And so we rented a little cabin on a lake and we just hung out. It was a really restful vacation. Like the place that we went didn’t have a lot of things to do. And so it wasn’t one of those vacations where you’re constantly like leaving and sightseeing and going and visiting museums and art galleries and things like that.
We went to a small little town cabin on a lake. The cabin was pretty shitty. It was like a 1970s cabin. Needed a lot of renovations and repairs, but it served the purpose that we needed it to serve, which was, it was just a place for us to rest and use as a home base while we. Swam on this lake and enjoyed ourselves on this lake and hung out with our dogs and hung out with our kids.
We even planned to eat out for every meal, which is so unlike us, normally I would pack like coolers. Yeah. And Rubbermaid tubs full of food and rent a place that has a kitchen for the purpose of being able to cook all of our meals there, not only to save money, but also because I don’t like restaurant food all the time, because it just doesn’t make my body feel amazing.
But this time we didn’t do that, I completely surrendered the need to control what we were eating. And I chose instead to use the trip as a true. Rest for myself. And since I am the primary cook in my family I rarely get breaks from cooking. So it was so nice for me to have five full days where I did not have to cook at all.
I didn’t turn on a stove. The only thing that I made myself was a smoothie and I actually packed my blender because I knew I would want to smoothie while I was on the staycation. Anyway, we ate out for every meal. And so it was really an intentional choice to just rest and completely change what our normal routine was.
And so we slept in and we, I really didn’t go by a clock. We just went by whatever our bodies were telling us to do. When we were hungry, we went and ate something and it didn’t matter if it was 11:00 AM or 8:00 PM. Went with the flow. And it was really amazing. And my favorite part of the whole trip was the day that we rented a boat and we took our kids out on the boat and we had an inner tube and we were going to go tubing and tubing is something that I grew up doing.
I think I’m I was a pretty good tuber. I know that I’ve been tubing behind many boats where the driver was trying to throw me off because I’m really good at holding off. And taking the waves and the rough parts of the water without it really affecting me that much, but I hadn’t tubed in literally like 20 years, maybe a little bit more than 20 years.
And so I was really excited. My kids have never seen me too. My husband had never even seen me tube. And so I was really excited to be able to do this. And also I just really love. Tubing. I love like the feeling of being pulled behind a boat. I love the wind and the water in my face. I love the bumps. I love the turns.
Like I love it all and I’m not afraid of it because I know that I’m wearing life jackets. If I fall off or fly off the tube, like I might hit the water and it might hurt, but I’m going to be okay. And so it was so fun. And this time though, I was not to being as like a 15 or 16 year old. I was to being as an almost 40 year old person.
And it was so interesting to be pulled behind a boat and to feel so completely present. Like I noticed my presence and of course, as a 15 or 16 year old, that’s not something that you notice whenever you’re doing something really fun. You’re not noticing, oh, wow. I’m really present right now. I’m not thinking about my responsibilities or my bills or.
The problem that I’m having in my relationship or whatever, like I’m just completely present and immersed in this activity. And as an adult, I think we can all agree that we find it hard to be fully present in whatever it is that we’re doing, because we’re constantly being pulled in a million different directions.
And we have all kinds of responsibilities and to do lists that are 10 miles long. And we have these like really developed and sneaky egos that, like to be our inner critic. Pipe up and tell us everything that we’re doing wrong and how we’re not meeting people’s expectations and how we should be doing this.
Instead of that, like all that bullshit. And, but I didn’t experience that. I was just literally like free on the back of a truck or being pulled by boats on a tube and was totally present to the point that I even noticed how present I was. The other thing I wasn’t expecting was that my highest self. Was quite loud during my tubing.
And I don’t mean loud and like in a noxious way, the way our egos are loud and obnoxious, loud and because I was so present, I was so connected to myself that my highest self was able to come through with a lot of clarity. And so as I was being pulled on the tube Like I was squealing with delight.
I was laughing. I was just having all of these amazing feelings come up that I haven’t had in a long time. Since the last time I was on an inner tier, which was probably 20 plus years ago, just a lot of really exciting, fun, happy nourishing moments for my inner child. My inner child was so nourished and so happy, but the other cool thing was the way my highest self was coming through.
And I don’t mean to turn to being into a spiritual experience, but it was because as I was being pulled behind the boat and I was going over waves and I was going in and out of the boat’s wake and I just heard my highest self coming through. Don’t resist, let your body, and this tube flow over the wall.
There is no fear you on the water are one don’t fight the turns, lean into the turns like, so I had this. Guru and my head or in my body of my highest self, like telling me all these things. And it was so interesting to be having the physical experience of a 15 year old, which was so amazing for my inner child, but then to be having the spiritual experience of an awakened and conscious being, which I am that’s what that trip was for me. If that trip accomplished nothing else. It got me out of cooking for five days and my inner child was nourished and cared for and had a lot of fun because I was focused on play and rest and not focused on plans and cooking. And. Keeping to a schedule like it was just really fantastic.
So that’s why I didn’t publish a podcast episode last week. So what I’m sharing with you today is, was actually going to be published last Sunday on August 1st, but instead I’m sharing it with you today on August 8th. All right. So before I move into telling you about today’s guest and what we’re going to be talking about on this show, I am drawing a card for you.
So a few weeks ago, I received the message while I was in my car, that I was to start drawing one card from one of my Oracle card decks at the beginning of every podcast episode. And. If you listen to this episode and the card resonates, then it is for you. Whether you listen to the episode on the day it’s released or a year later or five years later, because time doesn’t exist in a spirit world.
So I have drawn a card from my star seed Oracle deck, which I will link to below. And the card that I drew is this beautiful card call. Earth school and it is a soul with the cosmos inside of it, traveling through the cosmos in a downward motion, I will try to post a picture of this in the show notes as well.
And you can find show firstname.lastname@example.org forward slash podcast. This is episode 50, so I will include a picture of today’s car. In the show notes on my website so that you can see the beautiful art, because this is another deck that has really amazing art. So the car that I drew for you. Today.
And always, if you’re listening to this episode is the earth school card. And this is what the book says. Planet earth is a great initiation for the soul and life lessons are the curriculum for which we enroll these aren’t one time lessons, but themes, we choose to circle it. Deepening our experience of them as we make our way through the spiral of life lessons, aren’t only about getting it right.
They’re also about getting it wrong. Remembering that earth is a planet of polarity helps with this understanding each year, the study deepens more and more. If you pull this card while you’re going through a difficult time, you’re being prompted to remember that your soul came here to grow and learn.
Try not to look at difficult times as getting it right. Instead see them as opportunities for soul growth. If you can find a way to grow and soften your heart through the highs and lows, your soul is most definitely growing, which is the whole point pulling this card can also mean that you’re being called to embark on a new area of study or growth.
This could be through structured learning, such as universities, school, or training. If you’re having difficulties in a relationship you’re being reminded that these are opportunities for soul growth. After all relationships are known as the number one way that we grow as souls, while we’re here on earth, how are you being called to grow or learn?
So if that resonates for you, I am so honored to support you. And if it doesn’t, then it’s not for you. So take what resonates and leave the rest. And now I’m ready to tell you about this weeks ago. I’m so excited about this episode. My guest is Madison Morgan. She’s a big deal, and I will tell you more about that.
So Madison is a leadership coach, a speaker, a facilitator, a writer, and the host of the everything belongs podcast. She facilitates brave conversations that give visionaries, healers leaders and create. The space and tools to come home to their authentic selves and create a life grounded in their worth wholeness and personal power.
She centers on self belonging, sacred self-responsibility spiritual freedom and full expression and coaches, ambitious creatives and leaders as they shed layers of old programming that keep them small and finally come home to their true. And this episode with Madison, we share how our early relationships with our parents shape our sense of self and self sovereignty.
We share Madison’s experience in evangelical Christianity and why she was obsessed with quote unquote, abusive theology. We talk about shutting away the layers of life and trauma. Smother our sense of self and discuss the differences between a permeable self and a stable self. We also talk about binary belief systems and how we give away our power and outsource our sovereignty to these systems.
We expand on each person’s existence and personal identity as a manifestation. Spirit. We discussed how we are conditioned out of our personal sovereignty and explain why it’s so important to assert our preferences, boundaries, and choices, to maintain our sense of self. Talk about the role of personal choice boundaries and self responsibility in our trauma healing journeys.
And finally, we share the painful emotions and physical symptoms that Madison experienced when she wasn’t living in her sovereign. I very much hope you enjoy this episode with the one and only Madison Morgan. And please stick around to the very end of the podcast, because I have some more, really personal thoughts and things to share with you regarding self sovereignty self-responsibility and bodily, autonomy, and choice.
welcome Madison to the podcast. I’m so stoked that you’re here. I have been really looking forward to this, and honestly, it’s since starting my podcast, I haven’t been interviewed on a podcast in a really long time because I’ve just been interviewing others. So I feel really honored and excited to have the conversation.
I know how that goes. It’s been a while since I’ve been interviewed on somebody else’s podcast too, and I always get so excited when I have the chance. Yes. I’m like, this is so fun. Like the roles are reversed for a minute. Yeah. I’ve decided that if I could figure out a way to make a full-time income just by being a guest on other people’s podcasts, that I would love to do that because I absolutely love it.
Going on other people’s podcasts. It’s so fun. I think podcasting has been such a way to like connect with people and just off of Instagram, off of like where I usually connect with people, it feels so good. So yeah. Super pumped to be here. Okay. Awesome. I, we have a lot to talk about today, so let’s get into it.
So tell us something about yourself, about your journey that maybe you only hint at and your little bio or that we might not know about you, particularly for my listeners who may not already be following you. Yeah I think that there’s a lot of things I don’t hint at in my bio. And honestly I’ve stopped talking a lot about my trauma in a public way, and that was really intentional and deliberate, but I am a survivor of a lot of early childhood trauma and trauma that I thought was normal for a long time.
And then whenever I would say it to people would give me that oh my God, you’re oversharing. This is a really uncomfortable sort of a look that like my reality was so different than a lot of other people’s reality. And I think people wouldn’t expect that by. Where I’m at right now in my life.
I think that comes as a surprise to a lot of people. I’m a queer person and I’m in a relationship with a woman that in general also surprises people. And I think I actually mentioned this on my website, but when people meet me in person, they’re usually like you’re small and that tends to catch people by surprise.
I think either I have really big hair or like really big energy, but I’m a really small physical person and people tend to have a visceral reaction to that, which is always a funny delight to me. So those are some things that you might not know from my bio. Interesting. How tall are you if you don’t mind me asking five, three, but I also have I’m not like short, but I have really like narrow shoulders and like a really small build.
And people like. It’s usually oh, I didn’t realize sort of reaction, which is funny. I’m like one day it’s going to stop happening also, which is going to be interesting. Yeah, for sure. That’s fun. So one of the things that I have been blown away to discover about you through listening to your podcast, everything belongs.
I want to put a plug in there for your podcast is how similar we have or are similar backgrounds. Like we have both of us deep roots in evangelical Christianity and have both unpacked that deconstructed from not deconverted from that and are like living our lives. Outside of that binary belief system.
So can you, the goal of our conversation today, I hope is that we’re going to talk a lot about personal sovereignty. So can you share what your experience of having your sovereignty taken away from you or maybe giving it up willingly because you thought it was what you were supposed to do inside of evangelical Christianity.
Oh my gosh. I’m so excited to have this conversation. Thank you for asking. And I’m going to be honest. I wasn’t raised inside of evangelical Christianity, which is something that people often assume because of how devote that devout it. Wow. I can’t say that word devoted and devout. I was too the belief system.
I really think that regarding sovereignty that began much, much sooner way before I was introduced to the belief system of evangelicalism. And that was in my childhood. I was raised in an environment that was psychologically, emotionally and sexually abusive and had a very enmeshed relationship with my mother.
And my mother had a really difficult time for a number of reasons, seeing me as a different person than her. And, we can go into the pathologizing of that, but essentially whatever I did was a reflection of her. And if I did anything outside of that, it was a really big deal. So I cultivated an entire persona based around really impressing her and being who she was, grooming me to be.
And around what w whenever I was eight, my father went to prison and in his time in prison, he became born again, and I didn’t live with him, but that was my first introduction to religion. And he was really extreme. He traded one addiction for another really supportive his addiction recovery, becoming a Christian.
And he is a very intelligent, extremely high IQ potentially on the spectrum, man. And so he just became obsessed with Christianity, theology and instill is. And so I had the introduction, but it really didn’t land with me. Until I was an early teenager and I felt this like sudden just pushed back at my mother.
And I saw I didn’t consciously know how she was trying to grew me, but she wasn’t interested in Christianity. And so I found this hope, love this idea that God loves me no matter what that whole, that felt so good to me. And I started going to youth groups and really started to create what I felt was a sense of identity outside of my family system and an identity that my mom didn’t even want.
And I started finding mentors and through high school, it was very extreme. I was like fasting and praying, but it all was coming from really wanting to be close with God and wanting a family outside of my family. Because abuse at home was getting quite quite a lot at that point. And it wasn’t until college where I moved to Southern Missouri, where I currently live.
And it is a different kind of Christianity here. And it is like the buckle of the Bible belt. And I. Indoctrinated into extremist religion. And I’d already had a number of experiences like speaking in tongues and in that realm of Christianity, which honestly felt more free to me, it felt very embodied.
And whenever I moved here I became a part of a Baptist community and was mentored and slowly felt I started giving language to why I was bad. And then Christianity went from a place where God loves me and that feels safe to a place where I’m so bad. I’m so broken. I’m so wrong. I’m filthy rags.
And I really became obsessed with I would say abusive theology, people like mark Driscoll, really angry pastors and angry theology. And from there it was like, Full. I was so full on. I wanted to be so good that even whenever I was questioning it still, it was like a dissonance in my body. So all that to say, I traded one lack of sovereignty for another, because I really didn’t have a sense of self identity at that point in my life.
And it took deconstructing and meeting all that behind to, to really find myself and to say, leave that behind. I also mean I have, I believe behind my relationship with my mother as well. Obviously we’re still in re we’re in relationship because that relationship exists, but we’re not in contact anymore and that might change.
But there was a lot of things that had to be broken away that were like layers smothering my sense of self that I had never developed. And since removing myself from evangelicalism and a really tight belief system and familial roles that didn’t allow me to exist, I feel like I’m a person now where I didn’t feel like a person before.
So that’s like the short, long version. Beautiful. And also so crazy because I was raised in the Southern Baptist church in the Texas panhandle. Wow. So you know what I’m talking about? Oh, yes. Yeah. I was allowed to go to school dances, but my husband actually, he was raised in a Southern Baptist pastor’s home also in the Texas panhandle.
And he grew up not being allowed to dance. And in fact, I remember attending a wedding with my husband and his parents once and his mom went up to his dad and said, Hey, how about we dance together? And I’m not even kidding. My heart broke and shattered on the floor whenever his dad said no, there’s too many people from the church here.
Oh, my God. And I was just like because even like my husband would still like dance with me. But we weren’t, drinking was really discouraged. I remember the first time I wore pants to church because I wasn’t allowed to wear like pants to church. I could wear them to school, but I wasn’t allowed to wear pants to church.
And I wasn’t introduced to the sort of like charismatic embodied Christianity until I was like 18, 19 years old. And then I had the whole, like baptism of the holy spirit speaking in tongues all of that experience, but it’s really interesting to me is how you said that going to church and developing this relationship with Jesus and Christianity.
Was a way for you to establish an identity outside of your home and your family that was so dysfunctional and abusive. And that it wasn’t until later that you went to Missouri and found the extremist like fundamentalist Christianity. Because for me, I think I’m only just now realizing, like I also found this love and comfort outside of my house inside the church.
I was there anytime I could be there. I loved going to youth group. I loved doing all of that. And I think it was because no one at home was really telling me like, Here’s what makes you good? Here’s what we want you to do. Here’s what we don’t want you to do. Here’s we love you. No matter what, like nobody was saying that in my house, there was no sense of like healthy boundaries or like praise and affirmation, like any of that. And I found that at church, if I was conforming and complying and obeying yes. At least if I, if at home, if I was obeying, nobody was like, oh, good job. You’re obeying. But if it church, if I was obeying, like I could go to the Bible and I could see, okay, I did this, I obey, like there was this sort of like validation that I was doing, what I was supposed to be.
And I found that in the church and in God that, and I didn’t have it at home. Does that make sense? It makes so much sense. And I know, a lot about developmental trauma and since learning so much about that myself and also seeing people fall into. New age beliefs, and then fall, basically collapsed into a very disembodied idea of mysticism where people are just like free floating.
And there’s there’s nothing secure to hold them. I feel like I really had that tendency myself without a secure identity. I’m a very, like I mentioned, like a small person in AI-related. They might say like a lot to style person and like just, I could just float right away. And what I have observed is that whenever there’s no stable root system inside the self, which is like you belong here, you matter your needs matter, like it, no sense of stability, no sense of boundaries.
Like almost a permeable sense of self. It makes a lot of sense that people would seek out fundamental belief systems. And whenever there’s a rise of chaos, like we’ve seen in the last year, it makes sense why things like Q Anon might become so popular because finding the answers and feeling like someone knows and can give you the clear answers, feel so stabilizing.
If you’ve been in a chaotic environment or don’t have a secure sense of self. And so I used to really be so embarrassed for how extreme I was, because I really was like full on gung-ho like missionary. And now I look back and have a lot of compassion and see, like you mentioned the needs that being in the church and having that belief system was fulfilling inside of me.
And it was very much due to developmental trauma and it was sick. It was like a trauma response. It was securing a sense of self and a sense of safety that I had not previously experienced. So of course I would want. Yeah, I’ve yes, the safety, but I’ve also found that what I loved about evangelicalism was this sense of certainty that I had, like that I had the truth.
I knew the way, like my salvation was secure. And if I did X, Y, and Z and share the love of Christ and spread the gospel and read my Bible every day and did my devotions and all of that, then I could be certain that I was going to heaven. I was living a life that pleased God, that God was forgiving me of all of my sins and that anything good that ever happened in my life was his reward and blessing for me living this lifestyle.
Yeah. And I feel like that sense of certainty is what. Anyone like anyone who has this like developmental trauma where they didn’t have that safety at home, they didn’t know what the rules were. They didn’t have the boundaries, they didn’t have, all of those things that you were just describing.
I think that binary belief systems like evangelicalism or Q Anon or woke activism, or there’s even like educational philosophies that are really binary and like politics that are really binary that any of these binary belief systems, I feel like what they offer the people who conform and comply to them is this sort of sense of certainty that you’re doing the right thing.
And that you’re good. And we all want to be told you’re doing the right thing and you’re good. And because I think the certainty isn’t very What’s the word. It’s not a very strong sense of certainty, right? You have to be conforming and complying and obeying and doing all the things. It’s a conditional sense of certainty.
It’s not real. And so what I noticed, whether it’s my husband’s Christian family who are still in the ministry and living in the south in Baptist churches, or whether it’s some of the people who show up in my dams and comments on Instagram, like calling me a racist or whatever. It just seems like their sense of certainty is so fragile that my lifestyle, my authenticity, my sovereignty is like a threat to them.
And so they have to, point it out and shame it and say that it’s wrong in order to make themselves feel better and reseat themselves inside that certainty. Does that make sense? It does make sense. And I’m so sorry you’ve experienced that sort of harassment. It has been not something I desire to participate in.
Hey, it really sucks. That really sucks. Yeah, it has sucked. It sucked a lot, but you know what it’s been, I try not to follow it. I try not to look at it. Like I just try to ignore it most of the time. Sometimes I can’t get away from it. And I see it. And really it’s taught me to sit with the discomfort that somebody somewhere genuinely hates me and genuinely thinks that I am like this harmful awful person.
And just sitting with that discomfort has helped me have more. I still hate it, but like at least I can tolerate it now and it doesn’t send me into a tailspin of anxiety or panic or something. So yeah. Yeah. Goodness. It is so interesting. And it’s very akin to the people who were so certain, it mind you that the accusations are different.
Like being told that you are a racist person and perpetuating harm is different than being told your belief system is wrong and you’re going to hell. Because for me, honestly, it was really easy to let go of how and all of that was like. If I don’t believe this, I’m not worried I’m going to go there because that’s not a place.
However, whenever occupations of harm come in, that really bumps up against my value system. And so it’s a really different thing to, in my experience with people disagreeing with me online or whatever it is, it felt really different, same in the certainty and like in very rigid thinking. And also I really value non harming.
I really value being informed. I really value being inclusive. And I’ve really learned that me working out my beliefs about these things publicly is no longer what I’m interested in because gosh, I never, before in history have so many people have been sharing what they think they’re private thoughts that are meant for a journal and for a therapist in public.
And then people, especially during a pandemic, not doing well. Even if you are in therapy, so many people not doing well, still working their stuff out in such a reactionary way on social media, it’s just, it’s not even productive. Let’s, I’m just going to make the extreme that you are a terrible racist person.
Who’s perpetuating violence and harm, maybe social media. Isn’t the place to be talking about that. That’s just my opinion. I don’t disagree with you. I totally, so let’s step into personal sovereignty. I feel like personal sovereignty is a little bit of it’s becoming trendy to talk about who knew that was going to happen.
That in some ways being like I talk about sovereignty now and then boom, it was like this thing that very buzzword. Yeah. My daughter was into unicorns when she was like six years old, which was 10 years ago before unicorns were cool. So you’re into, you were interpersonal sovereignty before sovereignty was cool.
Maybe I just had to be trudged through the mud of feeling a lack of personal self to find it, which is I’m just going to name Hiro Boga as one of the people that I’ve really looked up to in this regard around sovereignty in her writings. I’ve not been personally mentored by her one-on-one, but her writings are on sovereignty and she’s a woman of color.
And an elder also, she’s been teaching on sovereignty for years and years and years. And I’ve read just like anything. I could get my hands on. Like all of her books, all of her blogs listen to every podcast she was ever on because the way she talked about it, so resonated with me. And so if anyone’s like wanting someone, who’s an elder, wanting someone who is a woman of color, a person of color, just to learn about.
Where I’m coming from, like in a lineage space, I’ve really learned a lot from hero Boca. Amazing. We will include links to all of her stuff in the show notes of this episode. I’ve never heard of her. How do you spell her name? Like being a hero. Okay. R O and then Boba B O G. Oh, perfect. I got it right then.
Yeah. Okay, awesome. So then what is personal sovereignty like? Really? What is it really before it was a buzzword? Yeah, to me, the way I describe it is I belong to myself and we belong together and it needs both elements. And if. If you think about the world as a whole people right now, they’re toggle I see between everyone is one, we’re all one in a lot of like fuckery happens whenever we only see what that we’re all one.
And you see a lot of like spiritual bypassing, like we’ll all one. And like your personal identities don’t matter. It’s that’s really true, except for that, where like spirit manifest as this unique person and each of us have freewill and each of us have choices and each of us have preferences.
And so yes, we are all one. And also we’re a part of that one. It’s both and it can’t not be both. And so for me, personal sovereignty is. Going back, if you will, to the developmental stage in your life where you start to have a personal sense of self, which is, two to four years old, when you start saying, no, that’s not what I want to wear.
That’s not what I want to do. That’s not what I want to eat. And how was that handled and how was that responded to, and are, do you allow yourself to have preferences or do you feel like your boundaries are permeable? Do you know what you want? Do you know what you need until that is established until there is a sense of personal power, which I believe is directly connected to personal sovereignty.
I don’t know how one could actually feel safe in the whole. And by that, whenever people don’t have personal sovereignty, which I actually think everyone has personal sovereignty, but we’re conditioned out of it and we’re not taught how to relate to it. Whenever we forget our sovereignty or we are disconnected from our sovereignty.
Then we are only living in response to other. And so if we can’t really be known, if we can’t really assert who we really are in the world, can we ever really feel the belonging is I think it has that element of we, you belong to yourself and we belong together and it’s really difficult to truly belong together.
If you have no sense of self. And this is, I really don’t want to mistake this as like, when I see people doing this, like really in the buzzwordy way, it’s you belong to yourself. Fuck the haters. Do you. And it really doesn’t consider yeah. And also you’re a part of an interconnected whole that’s what become like belonging to yourself ultimately leads to because it’s, I think whenever we belong to ourselves, it’s difficult to not want to serve and give back and realize that by belonging to ourselves, We are able to serve so much more.
And in my journey, it’s been a lot of healing from co-dependence and inmeshment and regaining that I’m actually not helpless. I’m actually not powerless. I actually have choice and increasing my capacity for choice. So there’s been a lot of work. Like literally the last 10 years have been all about figuring out what personal sovereignty means and then moving into a space where that relates to other and how does it relate to other, in my experience, I don’t have to be afraid of other people.
Because I don’t feel myself as I’m going to disappear anymore, which is really what I felt previously when I wasn’t one healing, developmental trauma from that age, and to asserting my boundaries and asserting my preferences and asserting my power in the world. How can we really feel like we’re in right relationship if we never bring ourselves to the table and how can we not, how can we bring ourselves to the table if we don’t know who we are and what we want?
Gosh, that was so beautifully said. So beautifully said I’m like make notes. Cause I have so many questions. What would you say then is the role of personal choice in healing? Something that is a part of you that you didn’t choose? What is the role of personal choice and healing? Something that you didn’t choose?
Is that the question? Yeah. That is like the only way. To heal. And I think that is a big bummer. I, that is a bummer. I remember maybe it was like five or six years ago, like really realizing this. And I was just like, that’s not fair. And I want to acknowledge that it’s not fair. It is. It’s not fair.
And also it is the only way. And that isn’t unique to this time in history. That’s always been the case and it’s hard to reckon with they, whoever they is for you, they could be an institution, a system of oppression, a a family system, a religious system. I genuinely believe that most people don’t realize level of harm that they’re producing.
It’s. I think it’s really rare that someone knows that they’re perpetuating violence and harm and. Doesn’t mean that the harm didn’t happen. And we often love the people that have harmed us. So that’s fucking complicated. And sometimes we made choices to stay in those environments. If we weren’t a child, I’m not going to say a child has the choice because that’s, I don’t believe in that.
But what other choices there to wait until everyone who’s caused you harm changes before you’re allowed to feel better? I noticed I was waiting a long time. I was perpetually waiting and that was unfortunately a lot harder than just choosing to be free. So I think it’s the only choice, but it’s a really hard choice to make.
And there’s a lot of grief involved. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I brought that question up in relation to some stuff that I’ve seen circulating online that my interpretation of it is that there’s this perpetual state of victimhood. That one must live under because something so horrible has happened to them that they shouldn’t even have to take the responsibility of healing themselves.
Shouldn’t maybe like maybe it shouldn’t have happened. Maybe these systems of oppression shouldn’t exist. I agree with that, but they do. And I think and, but trauma happens, but one in three children are sexually assaulted, right? That shouldn’t happen. That’s disgusting and violent and horrible.
And it happens. And I think that there is a, what I see and what I teach in my programs is we have to reckon with reality and we have to allow reality to have been what it was, if it would have been different, if it could have been different, it would have been. And it doesn’t mean that what happened, isn’t fucked up and wrong and that there isn’t a lot of change to happen.
And I think that change is faster when we do so from a place where we feel our wholeness. And that’s not to say that we talk a lot about, we have a program called awaken soul and a lot of people do this. A lot of this work in that program and forgiveness is like in module five, we talk a lot about forgiveness and allowing what has happened.
And there’s so much resistance. Because one that forgiveness has been used to abuse people and just saying, oh, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Like you have a choice it’s only your choice to make all those things have been used in contexts that. Have been used to perpetuate more violence and more harm and keep people from healing ultimately, and to keep the abuse happening.
And so it makes sense that they would be resistant. So I don’t want to forgive because that means one, it was okay to that. This can keep happening three that like I’m powerless to change this. All I have to do is just let it happen. No, like in that program, we equate forgiveness with allowing, with softening the body with accepting reality.
And we’re not accepting reality to say what is real is okay. But we’re saying it happened. It happened now. What. And I think that is a really powerful moment that not everyone is at the same time. And I, there have been things that I have not been ready to say now what that has happened now, what things that like, I think, I don’t know if it’s, astrology, I don’t know if it’s in the stars.
There are things that like I have carried where other things were so easy for me to let go of things that could have even been like, sexual abuse for me was easier for me to let go of than some of the enmeshment with my mother. And people might not understand that because it seems like sexual abuse is worse and we’re categorizing traumas and blah, blah, blah.
But there are some things I was ready to say, oh, that happened now what? That’s not my identity. That’s a thing that happened to me. I’m not going to live from that anymore. I’m going to heal it. And there are other things. It just took a really long time and some things that linger with grief and yet there’s still a choice.
And so I just, I want to be sensitive because I work with so many people who are like this isn’t fair. And I just want to acknowledge that it’s not. And what is the adult in the room going to do the adults in the room being me here now with you, Lindsay, right? Yeah. Oh, I love that. Thank you so much.
So you’ve talked a lot about boundaries and establishing yourself. So I was going to ask the question, what role do boundaries play in personal sovereignty? That the answer, everything. Can you share maybe some boundaries that have been really difficult for you to set in order to step back into your personal sovereignty and power and how you’ve overcome those challenges?
Oh my gosh. My journey with boundaries. When I first learned about boundaries, I did them in such a shitty way, because I really thought that if I just worded things right, that other people would change and then I would be happier because they would be, my boundary was like, and then you will adhere to my guidelines of being in relationship with me.
And I think that’s how we often treat boundaries is now I have a preference, you shall abide by them. And that like really doesn’t consider the sovereignty of the other person. That’s that to me is like using sovereignty in a really immature way of like a toddler. It’s like a, toddler’s no, I’m only wearing a swimsuit and it’s freezing outside.
It’s okay, that’s a little unreasonable. You’re not the only person in the world to exist. I think that, that’s how I really started my boundaries journey. Like I wrote people. Cutting them out of my life. And now do you know, all of these really intense, like fuck off tight boundaries because of people were close to me.
I couldn’t maintain my sense of self. And so I had really, I went from being so unboundaried to being so rigidly boundaried because I honestly, I think I needed people out of my energy field so that I could even feel myself. And again, I’m not saying that’s wrong or bad, it’s just immature and immature is not wrong.
It’s a phase of development. I was immature. I didn’t know how to do this. And I was new at it. I wasn’t practiced. And that was maybe eight years ago. Whenever I was practicing my boundaries in that way. And since then, back then I’ve studied communications for the last I don’t know, 13 years it’s been like the thing that I’m like really obsessed with studying.
So like I would word it just perfectly, I would say the boundary and just the right way to strategize how to get what I needed. And I started realizing that was really didn’t. It really didn’t matter if I didn’t feel myself, if I really couldn’t hold my boundaries while in relationship, because I became really lonely.
And I F I also felt like I couldn’t be myself unless I was alone because I, whenever I was around other, I became really quickly and meshed and couldn’t feel myself at all. And so a lot of my boundaries had to do with getting back in touch with my body. And then me honoring my own boundaries. It actually had very little to do with anyone else.
It was like, am I honoring my Canadians to myself? What do I do whenever I’m upset? Am I on my phone? Am I forgetting to eat? Like very basic, what do I need my, I deserve to meet my needs. That might’ve been like the most foundational way of setting boundaries for me was meet your needs when they arise, feel your needs when they arise.
And then from there it was really starting to identify how many abusive relationships I was in. I didn’t, I thought that I was the problem and all of my relationships. I had a lot of problems. I would say that it wasn’t me contributing to these dynamics, but because of the abuse I experienced and I wasn’t feeling myself, I wasn’t able to see the warning signs of being in a relationship with someone who was really playing up my ego to get what they wanted.
Like they could help me, they could do something for me, they could make me successful, whatever it was that they were offering me. That was like my hook that I was letting them abuse me because I was getting this ego need and really identifying that and being like, oh, fuck off to that. Like all of the, it was, I could, I could list more than 10 people that was in very close relationship with that.
It was just an extractive relationship. And so rather than at that time, it was like setting boundaries with those people. Now it’s those people don’t enter my life. Now it’s oh, that feels icky. No, thank you. And so again it’s very much being able to feel from the inside and not make a thing.
I think that’s what’s really coming up for me right now. Like whenever I feel that from someone not making them wrong, but just being like, I’m a no for that and not judging my, no, I don’t know why I’m a no it’s you. No. And I’m going to trust my body’s. My body’s knowing with that. You asked for like really practical ones I’ve given you nothing practical.
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I think that allows our listeners to read their own story into what you just shared and see how that applies to them. I am curious though, what do you mean? Or can you even describe it? What it’s like or what it was like for you to be around someone and to not be able to feel yourself anymore?
Oh my God. It gives me the shivers thinking about it. Yeah, it makes me emotional thinking about, cause I really didn’t know anything different. So it’s for someone who’s living in that state, they might not even know that unless they can feel themselves. I’ll tell you what it looked like. It looked like looking at my schedule so full that I didn’t have time to cook meals.
It looked like realizing I had to pee suddenly immediately right now because I wasn’t listening to my body’s signal to have to pee. It looked like showing up late to work and not having eaten. Because I didn’t know that I was hungry until I got to my job and blundering about saying things that were inappropriate oversharing and not being able to stop oversharing, even though I’m like observing other people’s discomfort with what I’m sharing.
But it was more, I couldn’t feel on the inside that something was wrong. It was in people’s reactions to me that I was seeing something’s not right here, but I don’t know what it is and I can’t stop. And I don’t know. I don’t know what’s going on that really, in my early twenties that led to, I, I thought I had fibromyalgia.
I was in a lot of pain. I had chronic cyst, cystic acne, chronic IBS, a lot of food allergies. I couldn’t actually figure out what was wrong. And So my my body was speaking, but it was like, I couldn’t put together what it was like lots of panic. I wouldn’t say a panic attack, but maybe it was before church and just being like, why am I so upset?
I don’t know what’s going on. And not even when my body was speaking, not even knowing how to Intuit what was happening. And I described this sensation that I actually, my girlfriend and I had just watched Gabba Monte’s new documentary last night, and we were talking about it and I described to her this sensation that I haven’t had in years, but it was it’s it was tender to think about because I didn’t know what it was as a child. And it’s this feeling of hollowness where I don’t know if I’m hungry or tired or sad, but something’s wrong. And I don’t know what it is. And I can’t, I don’t know if like napping or eating or anything will help. It just feels vacant and sad.
And I’m identifying that it’s sad now, but back then I would just curl up in a ball and just wait until it went away. And so experiences like that were just like, something’s wrong. I have no idea what it could be. And seeing people mirror to me that my behavior was inappropriate and not be able to one stop or to figure out what it was.
And so then what really was sad about that is that. It got internalized as I’m wrong. Something is wrong with me. People don’t like me. And it became like a social hypervigilance of shame that really got exacerbated in the church because people would call me out for these behaviors, like about my sin and sit me down and have these whole conversations about it and shame me publicly.
And didn’t realize, I didn’t know, it was trauma. They didn’t know it was trauma. They just thought these behaviors were sin. Which only led me further away from myself. Of course, because being shamed does that. So yeah, it looked like not knowing how to take care of myself, not knowing how to regulate myself, not knowing that people were inappropriate.
Or if I had pains about not liking someone, I like reverse projected it. That something was wrong with me instead of this was just misaligned. It was marked by a lot of confusion to put it really simply really sad time in my life. I didn’t look sad. I don’t think, but I looking back was really sad.
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that very vulnerable, tender experience. But I’m sure lasted for many years for you. Yeah. I’ve actually never heard someone describe my own identical experience in that way before like hollow feeling. Yes. And that feeling of I feel this it’s like a sense of emptiness with a slight bit of like irritation or annoyance.
It’s like this whole, but the edges of the hole are like vibrating with irritability and it made me like, again, not know what was I hungry? Was I tired? And so the way that I coped with that was by being a constant Dewar, like I had to be doing something all the fucking time, like to the point that I didn’t even just sit and hold my babies when they were babies, because I would feel that feeling.
And I would be like when I cleaned the house or when I like alphabetized the spice cabinet, that feeling goes away for a minute. Or when I literally, I used to do this it makes me almost want to cry thinking about it, but I used to get a coffee cup and put bleach in it and get a tea, an old toothbrush and get on my hands and knees and scrub the tile grout.
And I wasn’t like obsessive compulsive about germs. Like it had nothing to do with germs. It had everything to do with like always needing to find projects for myself to be doing. And the shitty thing is that because I. Deep, deep and evangelical Christianity at that time, because all of these things that I was doing, keeping my home, clean, making these amazing meals, like keeping everything organized, like that was applauded because Horace CRI was this like godly Proverbs 31 woman who like had all of her shit together, and, but really I had that like hole on the inside of me that was encircled with Ever so much irritability and Breton, like annoyance does that.
Yes. Thank you so much for we’re sharing that. And I think what grieves me about that season of my life and what I’m hearing you say is that the messaging we’re given is that if you feel that sense of vacancy or a whole, it’s like it’s a God shaped hole inside of you and just pray more and fast more to where I became really, like I would say my behaviors were like not being well with the way that I was like obsessively, praying, fasting, journaling, reading my Bible, like such.
I had to go and not do any sort of morning routine for such a long time because of how rigid I was during that season. And the messaging was like, if you feel this way, there’s something wrong. You’re not praying enough. You’re not having enough faith, all of these things, which only perpetuated more of this really toxic cycle when it was actually trauma.
And my longing for God, coupled with this like shame from a really distorted view of God. And so I’m so sorry you had that experience really fucking sucks. It does. And also I just, remind myself, I was doing the best that I knew how to do at the time with what I had, and I know differently now.
And like all I can do, I have to accept that. That’s what happened. That’s what it was and forgive myself for that. Like knowing that I was just hurting and doing the best I could with what I had and, I can do better now. I can be different now. And I still get those times every once in a while, I still get a time where I just feel that irritable Ugh, something’s wrong.
I don’t know what it is, but I don’t know what I’m supposed to be doing. I don’t know if I want to eat. I don’t know if I want to work. I don’t know if I want to go outside. I don’t want to even see a friend. Do I want to be alone? I don’t know what I want. That happens to me sometimes still.
And what I’ve started to do is just. Lean into the discomfort of that and just be like, okay, this is how Lindsay feels right now. Yeah. Can we sit with this feeling for a minute? And then if we don’t want to sit with it anymore, then we’ll get up and we’ll go do something else.
But at least let’s just sit with it and honor it just for a minute before we just immediately try to bypass it and distract ourselves from it. Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you. Like honestly, I, and I T I also think that if women yeah, We’re more willing to talk about this kind of stuff with each other, like you and I are not the only two women on the planet who have felt this way, but women are so trained to present like their best face and appear to have it all together.
And it’s almost like the busier. You are the badge of honor, the bigger, the badge of honor you get. And the more exhausted you are, the bigger your badge of honor. And the more wine you drink, the bigger your badge of honor oh my fucking God, tan. I could go off on a tangent on all the moms on social media who were just like more wine at the beginning of COVID.
Do you remember that? I don’t remember it. Cause I know that’s just like the certain kind of mom culture, but I also don’t hold any sort of alcohol in any good way, like three sips of wine and I’m literally drunk. And so it just doesn’t work for me. Yeah. I don’t tolerate alcohol very well either.
So anyway, I, again, I could let go off on a tangent about that, but I was just like, no, if you’re going to be off work, let’s use this time to grow and heal, not drink wine. Anyway, that was silly, but so well, before we hop off, cause I want to be respectful of your time, but can you share about the programs that you do and your coaching business, and I especially want to hear about your reclaiming sovereignty program or rising sovereign, sorry, rising sovereign program.
And yeah, just any ways that our listeners might be interested in tapping through the show notes and going and finding you in all the places. Yeah. My goodness, I feel like I could chat with you for another whole hour. And so we’ll have to figure out a way to make that happen because I’m really enjoying this conversation.
And I can’t believe I’m like, oh my gosh, it’s already time to wrap up. Yeah, I have. A couple of different programs. The first being awaken her soul. And it really is. It’s a six month program that brings people through it, a deconstruction, and it can be a district deconstruction of faith for a lot of people that often is they’re in a rebuilding, but they’re still old programming.
And what I really see. Happen a lot. It happened to me. It happens to a lot of people is they’ll leave Christianity, but become just as rigid dogmatic about the next thing. And that next thing could be veganism. It could be social justice, it could be new age beliefs. It could be, Q and whatever it is, it could be just as rigid and binary as the one they left.
And I’ve literally said that exact same thing I’m like until yes. Why your nervous system is so attracted to these binary belief systems. You will hop from one binary belief to the next. So the next to the next yes. And why go through the ego death of leaving Christianity or leaving, whatever it is that you’re leaving behind, if not actually untethered from the programming that made that work for you so well in the first place.
And so for anyone who feels that they’re caught in binary thinking caught in unworthiness all or nothing, programming, all of that is the programming of the patriarchy is the programming around white supremacy. It’s it is embedded in our culture and people who weren’t raised religious still experience.
That’s very similar binary thinking. It’s just even more intensified for those of us who experienced a religious indoctrination. And awaken her soul really helps people reconnect to their essence. And I think that it’s so important to do that because whenever I left Christianity and whenever I started to deconstruct, I went into the void of nothingness for a while, and it felt so scary that like a nihilistic, nothing matters.
And there was something beautiful that almost like I felt through that experience into if nothing matters and I can shape my own reality. And that felt really exciting. But even after that, I felt like there was something I needed to grasp onto to hold onto a thread if you will. And so in awakened her soul, something I really drive home is you do have an essence or Rachel Maddox calls it a blueprint of health.
There’s there is a version of you that has never been touched by the trauma that is not living in the programming in authentic, true self that I think that we are all longing to live from and experience, but it’s just been layered on top of by programming, by traumas and. The program helps to lift off some of those traumas so we can start living more free.
And boundaries are always a great side of that because how do you know what boundaries you just said? If you can’t feel yourself, if you don’t know who you are. And so that program really supports people and kind of the foundations of sovereignty, even though we don’t say it that way. And then my other program rising sovereign, it’s a nine month journey and it’s a lot more upper level support.
It’s a lot more contact like one-on-one mentorship is included. And I like to think of it as like it’s a more mystical container. There’s depth coaching. I use hypnosis. I use NLP LP, some schematics but really it’s what do you want? What do you want? And what’s keeping you from getting there and let’s really go there.
And so I have people who from just starting a business to being an influencer, to deciding they’re quitting their job, and they are just going to venture out and do something more so aligned. And they have no idea what the fuck it is. They were like committed to honoring their soul and they want to do it from a place of elevated leadership.
And what leadership really means, which is, I think again, sovereignty belonging to themselves together. And I don’t know when this will be released, so it might not even be relevant, but I just opened up a business program and I feel super excited and in a weird to even say that I’m doing that because I was just like such a no for teaching business for so long.
And it’s honestly, it’s in response to a lot of my clients from rising sovereign and from awakened, her soul are like, I want to start a business. Can you help me? And I’ve been like, no, even though I totally could, because my own ego was like, I don’t want to be a business coach or something. And so I’m finally just okay, I’ll do this once a year.
And we’re, I’m going to teach everything that I know and it around about business and cultivating and crafting a message from a place of integrity, because I see that, somewhat lacking in the online sphere sometimes. So I’m excited for that because it will be infused with everything I’ve been teaching for the last seven or eight years, but in a context where it’s business, which I think is such a unique opportunity to know ourselves, as you probably know, starting in doing all of this, you just see yourself in a totally new way.
And so those are the things but of course, people can go to my website. It’s my name? Madison morgan.com. Not Morgan, like the first name, but more again like the Celtic goddess. Yeah. But thanks for letting me share all of that. I have. Oh, for sure. No, we’ll have links to all of your stuff.
When are you opening up your business? It starts August 4th. Oh. This episode will air before then. Oh, cool. If anyone’s interested, please apply. It’s an, it’s like an application process and yeah, I’ll send you a link to put it in the show notes. Awesome. That sounds great. Any, anything else that you feel needs to be said before we close off?
Do you feel like everything is closed up or anything else you want to add? There’s nothing. I feel that’s like open. I think what we talked about a lot of really sensitive things today. Like some really personal things and trauma and. Choice and all of these things that can land really harshly in someone’s system.
And I just want to say that I really believe that it can be easy. I really believe that if we’re not in resistance to the pain that moving through some trauma stuff can bring up, then that this experience can be a lot faster, even though I’m like, I know everyone says slow down to speed up. I believe that.
And I think it can be easier and quicker whenever we stop resisting that life, like life wants to heal. Our bodies want to heal, and if we can move into surrender to that, There can be a lot of freedom, a lot faster than people think so, not to say that, like going through the portal of healing, letting go of all your beliefs is like the most fun thing ever.
But on the other side, there’s a lot of spaciousness and freedom. Absolutely. Very well said. Yeah. I have to remind people sometimes it was only as of the day that we’re recording this podcast. It was only two years and three months ago that I attempted suicide. Oh my though, like your healing does not have to take forever.
See, wow. Be fast. And it literally only, you’re the one who controls how fast or slow it goes based on your level of resistance. Wow. That’s really beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. I’m really like, I don’t even know who that person is anymore. She was just. She was living on autopilot of trauma, just constantly in a reactive state reacting to everything not responding, just felt that emptiness inside, that we talked about.
But yeah, the only reason I threw that in there, it was just to echo that it really is based on your level of resistance, like the more you resist the longer it’s going to take. And as soon as you surrender and feel that pain and move through it yes, it hurts. It fucking hurts. But on the other side of it is something that.
Is better than you could have ever imagined. So thank you for doing that. Yeah, for sure. I’m curious, like what healing modalities really supported you and weaving through all of that? Yeah, that’s a really great question. No, one’s asked me that before. So first and foremost, right after I attempted suicide, I actually checked myself into a mental hospital.
At that point I was so far gone with my mental and physical health. Psychiatric medications was it for me at that moment. And that was really difficult for me because I come from a holistic health and wellness background and I’ve, I was a food blogger for many years and I did all the, like whole 30 and keto and paleo kind of stuff.
So to walk into a hospital and have my hand open, give me whatever you’ve got. Yeah. It was a stress for me, but it was also like the greatest act of surrender. Because at that moment I knew I am not in charge of this anymore. I don’t have control over this anymore. It’s completely manageable.
Psychiatric medication, first of all helped. But while I was on the medications, I was like, I know being on meds isn’t forever for me. So I’m going to use these things as a crutch while I figure out what it was that got me to the point. Where I needed them to begin with. And so that’s, whenever I dove head first into learning about the nervous system and the impact of trauma on the nervous system.
And I didn’t know any of that, even though I’d been in therapy for many years, like my therapist had never educated me about my own nervous system. So the more I learned about the nervous system, the more I wanted to learn how to regulate it and the things that were the Mo I’ve done a lot of things to regulate my nervous system, but meditation is not one of the things that regulates my nervous system.
Although I do it, it’s not my favorite. But cold plunges. Have been immensely transformational for me for building resiliency and flexibility in my nervous system. Journaling and I don’t mean journaling. Like one day I might turn that journal entry into my memoir. I mean journaling, like sometimes I’m literally just like scribbling, scratching on the page, just getting out anger and rage and all of, things that I can’t say to people.
So just like rage, journaling, Arctic. Yeah, totally cathartic. And then also spending a lot of time yeah. In nature and just like leaving my phone at home and going out into the woods. And sometimes that just means like laying on some Moss or hugging a tree or whatever, but that helped me to get perspective on how small of a speck I really am on this.
On this speck of dust that we’re all floating on. And also I’ll say one more thing. And this is a recent thing, but I learned about the work of Dr. Michael Newton. He was a hypnotherapist who developed a form of hypnotherapy, where he would put his clients in a really deep state of consciousness hypnosis, and he would interview their souls and that’s cool.
Oh my God, it’s the coolest thing ever. His books are called journey of souls and destiny of souls. And he interviewed like hundreds of people and he documents the case studies of like 60 of these people in his books and the way that they describe what happens to them after they die, what their soul does between death.
And whenever it goes into another realm, like what they do while they’re in that other realm, how they decide when to reincarnate back, like he asks them all of these questions and they give answers. And that was extremely healing for me because the common thread for all of them was that whatever human experiences they’ve ever had were always for them.
Growth and evolution and having it get, having that information come to me through that type of a way, was it helped me turn off any part of my brain that thought that what was happening to me was unfair or too hard or too much because now when something shitty happens, like I just, I come back to myself and I just go, my soul chose this.
This is for my highest growth. And it doesn’t mean it’s not hard. And it doesn’t mean it might not suck, but I’m not a victim to this because my soul chose this. And that has been really helpful for me as well. So maybe that was a lot more than you wanted to know. No, I wouldn’t. I really wanted to know.
Thank you so much for sharing that with me. Yeah, for sure. That’s why that’s where the phrase holistic trauma healing came from is because the universe showed me that a lot of people try to make trauma healing into this linear process. And it’s not, it involves like lots of different things.
I don’t think that any one person is going to heal with one modality. I think we need a lot of tools and our trauma healing toolbox so that we know what to reach for, to do the job that we need to do in that moment. Yes. I find people are really bummed when they find out all of the different things I’ve done to heal.
Like I have to do. I’m like, I know it’s a lot, some of those things didn’t work. And some of them were really see, you have to be on your own journey and there’s a number of different things from programs to therapist, to coaches, to practical tools, books, all of those things that support us.
Yeah. And also it’s going to say just living really well supports us to don’t underestimate, the healing in a beautiful floral arrangement or like making your meal look delicious. There’s so much healing in that just even be present to creating those things. So it doesn’t even have to be like officially a healing modality.
Totally. For me, like nourishing my body, like feeding myself, really nourishing foods is like very healing for me. Yeah. Yeah, no beautifully said I could keep talking, but I know you’ve got to go. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you, Madison.
I really hope you enjoyed that conversation with Madison. It was such an honor to have her on the podcast and I’m definitely going to figure out how to have her on the podcast again. And it would also be a dream of mine if I could go on her podcast. So we’ll cross our fingers and see what happens.
Now as promised I have something to share with you. That completely relates to what Madison and I talked about in this episode with self sovereignty and self responsibility and healing. So before I go into this, I want to lay some groundwork and give you some context first and foremost, I am not anti-vax and I am not.
Provac. What I am about to say has nothing to do with being, for, or against the COVID vaccine, nothing whatsoever. So I want to be really clear about that because some people on social media seem to think that because I share what I share, which I’m about to tell you that automatically means that I am one of those crazy anti-vaxxers and I’m not.
I am not anti-vaccine. I am also not pro vaccine and honestly, whatever my stance on vaccines is, does not matter for the sake of this conversation. It doesn’t matter because it’s not about being for or against vaccines. It’s about self sovereignty, autonomy, personal choice, bodily choice. That’s what it’s about.
If you hear anything and what I’m saying and you automatically jumped to, oh, she’s just another one of those crazy anti-vaxxers I’m going to tell you right now. No, I’m not. So with that lay, that groundwork laid here is what I have to say on August. I don’t know, fourth, third, something like that. The governor of New York bill Blasio announced that.
Or the governor of New York city, excuse me, non New York, the governor of New York city announced that the COVID-19 vaccine proof would be required for indoor activities, such as entertainment and restaurants. And I have things to say about this, and I said them on my Instagram profile and I lost over 400 followers in a day.
Which not a big deal to me. I’m not on Instagram for the numbers of followers, the numbers of followers that I have, doesn’t make a difference to me whatsoever. It just goes to show that like this, we already know, knew it. This is a divisive topic. People are more divided than ever. We have been divided about masking.
We’ve been divided about social distancing. We’ve been divided about race. We’ve been divided about now, vaccines. We’re just adding more and more or things to be divided about. And that’s really unfortunate. It’s really sad. I don’t know what to do about that. To be honest, I will always be pro love pro inclusion, pro unity and pro personal autonomy and sovereignty and choice.
So I made a post on Instagram and here’s what. Can someone please tell me how separate schools, bus seats, restaurants, churches, and water fountains is segregation, but banning unvaccinated people from gyms, theaters, churches, restaurants, and classrooms, isn’t segregation. And as you can imagine, I got a lot of backlash on that.
Mainly from people who are saying that is a very racist and privileged thing to say because black people and brown people were segregated because of something that was not their choice, their skin color. And that is correct. That is an accurate thing to say, the color of skin that you have or your ethnicity.
Or your gender is not your choice. That is just, it’s something that you’re born with and to be discriminated against and separated and ostracized from community, from society based on those things is absolutely segregation and it’s absolutely wrong. However, the reason why. And I did weigh the decision too, make the post.
I knew that the statement I was making was bold. I knew it was controversial. I knew that it was going to raise some eyebrows and turn some heads. I knew I was going to get unfollows. I knew there were going to be people who weren’t happy about it. So the reaction that I got from people was not surprising to me at all.
And I’ve been doing this social media thing for long enough to know that I can’t take it personally. These people don’t know me. I don’t know them. Like we don’t have any right to speak into strangers lives. Period. What I share on social media is never meant to have a conversation on social media, unless it’s in the DMS.
I don’t believe a comment section or where we need to be figuring out hard shit. But I do share what I share on social media. To get people thinking. I hope that people will take it off of social media and into their real life communities, with their real friends and have these kinds of conversations with each other, because that’s where it really matters.
However, just as I am not Provax or anti-vax, I want to make it clear that what I said about segregation is in no way or shape or form intended to be. Any kind of racist or privileged thing to say, I’m not just another white woman, using segregation or whatever, as a way to become a victim again.
Okay. I understand that as a white person, I have no fucking clue what it is like to be discriminated against based on the color of my skin or my nationality or my ethnicity or my gender. Like I get it. Okay. The point wasn’t. To stir up the anti-racist pot. The point was that by definition, the word segregation is not just about Jim Crow laws and the civil rights movement.
The dictionary definition of segregation is the act or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things being set up. And the example that the dictionary gives is the segregation of pupils with learning difficult. So segregation at its core has nothing to do with race, even though that is how we most commonly associate the word segregation is with Jim Crow laws in the south and segregation and all of that, or the civil rights movement.
That’s how we typically think of segregation. But the actual definition of segregation is not about race at all. It’s about separating people and setting people apart from other people or. So when the mayor of New York city, excuse me, says that all indoor activities are going to be vacs only starting August 16th.
And that includes indoor dining entertainment, and fitness. Then that is segregating non vaccinated people. It just is because it is setting them apart from things and from other people. Now here’s where it gets tricky. So this is where we get into the personal choice. And this is why this relates to this episode with Madison talking about personal sovereignty.
I understand that you cannot control your skin color, your ethnicity, your nationality, and your gender. And your sexuality. I understand that none of those things, we’re not debating whether or not those things are a choice. I don’t believe that they are a choice. And I support people who want to be a different gender than what they were assigned at birth.
I support people who have been discriminated against because of their race or their gender or their sexual sexuality. I am against bigotry of all forms. I am against bigotry. Of all forms. And there is a new sort of bigotry that I see arising out of the COVID-19 pandemic. And that is the big bigotry of people who don’t want to wear masks against people who do wear masks and vice versa.
The bigotry of people who do wear masks against people who don’t, people who questioned social distancing versus people who don’t question. People who think the pandemic was planned versus people who don’t think it was planned. It’s conspiracy theorist versus person who says they believe in science.
There’s a whole new sort of bigotry that’s coming. And now, and of course we knew this was gonna happen with the COVID-19 vaccine. There’s another form of bigotry that is arising and it’s people who are strongly anti-vax are very loud and outspoken about it against people who are pro-vaccine and then vice versa.
People who are pro-vaccine are very loudly outspoken against people who you are not getting the vaccine. But what I don’t hear being talked about, which is why I brought it up. Is the fact that the segregation is happening, keeping people out of restaurants, bars, theaters, gems, whatever that’s indoors, based on a medical choice that they have made is still segregation.
I would say that it’s medical segregation actually, and this really. Has nothing to do with the choice. And that’s where people on Instagram got really caught up was the fact that race is not a choice, but whether or not you vaccinate is a choice that your ethnicity or your nationality or your gender is not a choice, but whether or not you vaccinate is a choice.
And I agree with you. I agree that sex, gender, sexuality, race, ethnicity, the, those things are not choices. And whether or not you vaccinate is a choice. I get it. But it’s also illegal to discriminate against people or segregate people based on their religion and their religion is a choice. You choose your religion, even if you were born into it.
At some point as an adult, you have the ability to choose for yourself. If you’re going to stay in the religion that you were raised in. If you’re going to question it, if you’re going to leave it, if you’re going to choose a different one for yourself. That is still a choice. And in this country, it is also illegal to discriminate against people, or should we segregate people to keep them out of restaurants or bars or gyms or classrooms or wherever based on their religion, which is also a choice.
So I would say that you can’t use the, but it’s a choice to get vaccinated or not, and it’s not a choice to be black or brown. You can’t use that argument because. Religion is a choice and we are discriminating against people based on their religion anymore. Thank God we’re not, but this is a new form of bigotry and it relates to the conversation that I had with Madison about self sovereignty, because.
Now people’s choices for what they do with their bodies or what they do or don’t put in their bodies is now becoming something that we think we should have a say over. If we don’t have a say over the religion that someone chooses, why should we think we have a say over what they put in or on their body?
And. This is where things get really sticky, because I understand that the complexities of this issue are like a diamond with a million pounds. And every which way you turn that diamond, you’re going to see a new facet. It’s the same way with this issue. It’s so complex. There’s so much nuance that you could turn this argument or this debate inside, out and upside down in a million ways and 360 degrees.
And you’re going to see a new perspective, no matter which way you look at it. It’s not black and white. It’s not binary. It’s not as simple. I wish it was, but it’s not as simple as Provax versus anti-vax or pro mask versus anti mask. But for the sake of this, I’m talking about vaccines. It’s not that simple.
It’s just not, and yes, I understand that there is a risk to other people. When you or I, or someone else chooses not to be vaccinated. I understand that there is a risk to other people and I’ve had numerous people try to give me the drunk driving explanation that this is why we don’t drive drunk.
Because even if you don’t hurt yourself, you could hurt somebody else. Like I get that. And I think that argument. Falls short. Another argument that I have gotten in the DMS is it’s a person’s choice if they want to eat at McDonald’s every day, and that’s not going to affect the people around them.
And I also say that argument falls short because if you eat at McDonald’s every single day, maybe it doesn’t affect the people around you on that day. But over time, what that’s going to do to your body is absolutely going to affect the people around you. Like when you can’t play with your kids anymore, because you have heart disease and or diabetes and, or you’re morbidly obese from eating big Macs every single day, that’s going to affect your total.
There are consequences for your children, that they didn’t have a choice over. That’s going to have consequences for your partner, that they didn’t have a choice over. That’s going to have financial consequences for you because now you’re having to spend money every month, going to the doctor, trying to keep yourself well and spending money on pharmaceuticals to keep yourself alive.
That’s going to have consequences for the people in your life. And if you eat a McDonald’s every single day and you end up chronically. With a metabolic disease and you die, that is also going to affect the people in your life. So you can’t say that it’s okay to eat a McDonald’s every day, because that’s a personal choice about what you put into your body.
And it’s obviously a crappy personal choice about what you put into your body, but you can’t use that as an argument for, but this is why you should get a vaccine because you’re actually protecting the people in your life. What if you’re protecting the people in your life, but you have a bad result from the vaccine.
What have you have a reaction? How many tweets and posts on Instagram and news stories, have you seen of people who have gotten both of their COVID-19 vaccines and they have gotten COVID-19. It’s happening. So yeah, they were making a decision to protect themselves and to protect the greater good, but they still got sick.
They still maybe died or having like long COVID issues and symptoms. So you can’t say that our personal choices haven’t affected the people around us forever. That is what it is. We are tribal beings. We are community beings. Like we cannot survive alone. We have to be in community and in relationship with each other.
So of course the decisions that I make in my personal life, or my body are going to affect the people around me, whether I get a vaccine or not, whether I choose to eat at McDonald’s every day or not, like I make personal decisions for my body that have the potential to affect people in my life all the time.
And so do you, everyone does. The problem that I have with the discourse that’s going around about vaccines is not whether or not we’re pro or against vaccines. I don’t care. I don’t give a shit. What your opinion about vaccines is? It doesn’t matter. My opinion about vaccines doesn’t matter either. That’s why I’m not sharing it because it doesn’t matter.
What matters is that we are now seeing a time when our government. Like the mayor of New York city are mandating us to inject ourselves with something that we may not be comfortable with. And if we don’t, we are suffering social consequences. I E segregation separation people who are not receiving a vaccine are now being othered.
They are other than. And othering people is the root of all forms of bigotry, of racism, homophobia, ableism, transphobia, sexism, misogyny, like othering, other people, making them other than you is the root of bigotry in all forms. And what we’re not talking about enough is that. If we believe that my body, my choice applies to women who may not want to carry a pregnancy to term and have a baby.
So they choose to get an abortion. If we believe that why does my body, my choice not apply to vaccines because even a single person, woman who is pregnant with a child, if she chooses to terminate that pregnancy, That could have effects on her for a long time, or it might not, it might not, it might have consequences to her family.
She might be disowned from her family. She might be kicked out. She might be disowned from her religion. She might be punished by her religion, but she still has to make the choice that’s best for her and her body. Because at the end of the day, the consequences that she has to live with. Are consequences for her emotional, mental, financial wellbeing, and also the consequences in her physical body.
And we say that it’s okay for her to make that choice for herself. So why is it not okay for people who are skeptical of receiving a vaccine who aren’t quite sure, like they’re taking their time to make a decision for themselves? Why is that? Not okay. Why can it not be their choice? Why is their sovereignty and autonomy not being respected and protected?
That is the root of the issue here. It’s not whether or not you’re for or against vaccines. The other argument that I’m hearing from the pro-vaccine side is that you should get vaccinated for the greater good you’re protecting the greater public health, the collective. When you get a vaccine. And that if you don’t get a vaccine that you’re selfish and I say no to that as well.
And I see so many eerie similarities between that line of thinking and the messages that a lot of us received from our parents when we were growing up and we had manipulative, abusive narcissistic, gaslighting parents who told us that we couldn’t tell people what was happening in our family, because we had to protect the family.
Because the family was the most important thing. It was all about the family. It was all about protecting the family and the family secret. And I get that. We’re not protecting a secret here by getting vaccinated or not getting vaccinated, but the reasoning is still the same. It’s that you can’t say no, because you have to think of everyone else before yourself.
You have to protect the greater good. You have to protect the family before yourself. And this is true for, I received a DM from someone who is in Russia and I’ll read you that day. She said, you put into words, what is hard to articulate as a survivor of physical, sexual, emotional, and mental abuse? My whole life.
It’s hard to explain why I value my autonomy and sovereignty to people who didn’t experience the loss of theirs. It’s hard to verbalize that early abuse makes you feel like a slave and how I feel the same feelings I felt when I was a child and adults. But I feel it coming from my peers and the state.
It’s terrifying, it’s traumatizing. I can see and feel the coercion and it makes me want to run and hide. My grandfather was also a first generation Russian Jewish person, and there are other deeper generational traumas surrounding the state and bodily, autonomy, and eugenics. Thank you for your post. So for people who have been in situations and environments, that we would consider developmental trauma, We had to stay and endure horrific things, abuse, neglect, sexual abuse, gaslighting, manipulation all kinds of awful things.
And because we were children, we didn’t have a choice. We couldn’t say no, we couldn’t leave. We couldn’t opt out. Sometimes things were done to our bodies without our consent. This is the reality of what trauma does to us. It robs you of your personal sovereignty of your autonomy and over the choice that you have over your body, it robs you of that.
And so let me ask you this. This is not a rhetorical question. This is a real question. How can we have a discussion about healing, trauma, about excavating and. Our inner child work and processing those stored, stuck emotions. And all of the things that we talk about on this podcast, all of the things that are my work with holistic trauma healing, how can we have a conversation about those things that doesn’t include self sovereignty and autonomy?
There is no other way to talk about healing trauma without including the reclamation of sovereignty and autonomy. Because that is what is taken from you. When you experienced developmental trauma, you don’t have a choice. Your voice doesn’t matter. You can’t protect yourself. You can’t say no and you can’t leave.
So reclaiming. And healing has to involve self sovereignty. It has to involve people who never had a choice before stepping into their power and their authenticity and their autonomy, and being able to have a choice and a voice. That’s what matters. It doesn’t matter whether you’re pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine.
What matters is that each individual person. Has their own story, their own experiences of trauma, their own shit that has happened to them, their own triggers. Like every person is different and you can’t make a blanket statement. Everybody needs to get a vaccine for the public. Good. When that can be incredibly damaging to someone just like this person that I just read.
She grew up with all of this abuse and she didn’t have a choice or a voice that was taken away from her and now it’s happening again, but it’s happening by the government and the state. This is not okay. This is why self sovereignty is so important. It’s not just about taking responsibility for your healing like Madison.
And I just talked about, it’s also about knowing that you have a say over what happens to your body. And you didn’t have a say over what happened to your body in the past. And so how can you feel safe? How can you heal if that healing and safety doesn’t include choice your voice, what is best for you?
Like it doesn’t make sense any other way. And to think that it makes sense any other way, it just doesn’t work. And it’s manipulative. It’s manipulative as. People to tell someone that if they don’t get a vaccine, they’re just selfish. I realized that is simple. I realized that’s the black and white way to look at it.
That’s the easy way to look at it. It’s easy to point the finger at them and call them selfish. But that’s not what it is that isn’t serving a purpose. All that’s doing is creating more division, more, hate, more otherness, more separation, more segregation. So my post on Instagram was not a post about racism, my posts on Instagram, a plea for people to see how this is creating a whole new level of beauty, the tree of division of segregation and separation.
So I still absolutely stand behind what I said. I even stand behind the comparison that I made to. Segregation. And I know that this isn’t fluffy, it’s not love and light all the time. This is hard, but it can’t be love and light all the time. I acknowledge that this pandemic has been hell for all of us.
I acknowledge and validate the pain of people who have lost friends and loved ones to COVID-19. I validate the pain. Children who were kept away from their friends and their peers for an entire school year. I validate the pain and the confusion of parents who were forced into not only working from home, but also figuring out how to homeschool their children.
I validate the pain of people who lost their jobs, who have lost family. Like I validate all of that. I’m sorry that this pandemic happened. I acknowledge that people have been dying from this virus and in all of that acknowledgement, I can still, I can hold space for all of that. And also I’m never going to stop advocating for your bodily, autonomy and sovereignty and my bodily autonomy.
Even if you’re like 100% hell yes. With getting a vaccine, even if you’re like, I want to do this. I believe in the science. I trust the FDA. I trust the pharmaceutical companies. I’m doing this for the greater good. I’m also doing it for myself. Even if you’re happily like doing this, I am still going to advocate for your personal bodily, autonomy and sovereignty.
But ultimately we cannot separate and other people based on their bodily choice, we can’t do it. People in a free integrated country should not be re segregated for any reason, not for features of themselves that they don’t have a choice over such as their skin color, their nationality, their ability, or their gender, and not for things that they do have a choice over like their religion and their medical choices.
As I said earlier, the dictionary definition of segregation is the action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things, or being set apart. So by definition, whether you agree or not, whether you like it or not, New York, city’s new vaccine mandates are setting people apart from other people and things.
We are already more divided than we’ve ever been social media. And the government have made sure of that. The answer to this cannot be more division. It cannot. To other people like we’ve always done in the past racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, and now bigotry against non-vaccinated people. Bigotry in all forms are symptoms of our collective trauma.
And bigotry is based on making someone different than you, the enemy or the other. And I’m saying, if it’s wrong to other people for their skin, color ability, sexuality, and gender, then it’s also wrong to other people for anything that makes them different from a quote unquote acceptable society. So I’m not Provax or anti-vax, this is so much deeper than my personal stance on vaccines.
And I hope you can hear that coming through this isn’t even about that, even though the majority of people who were upset about thinking that I’m one of those crazy anti-vaxxers and also thinking that I’m like this privileged white racist woman, like it’s not about either one of those things.
This is about people of all colors, all genders, all races, all ethnicities, all abilities. All classes, having the right to bodily, autonomy and medical freedom. I believe in holistic trauma healing with my entire being, this is my life’s work. If I didn’t care about the collective, I wouldn’t be doing this work.
I have personally experienced the inner freedom, the self-love and the higher vibration of myself and others. When they have chosen to go down this path. And how do we know that we’re healing? Because we’ve learned to feel safe in our own bodies, maybe for the first time ever, because we know how to think for ourselves now, because we aren’t adjusting ourselves and changing ourselves to please other people or to avoid conflict because we have set energetic and physical boundaries so that we know where we end and others.
Because we’re taking radical self responsibility for our behaviors and feelings. We’re not waiting for a savior. We’re not waiting for someone to come and rescue us. We’re taking responsibility for our feelings and for our healing. What do all of these things have in common, personal sovereignty, autonomy and bodily choice there not.
Be trauma healing without the reclamation of the self that has always been you, even when you didn’t know it because of the chaos and dysregulation of your childhood. That is what the conversation is about. And I understand that it’s possible for an unvaccinated person to be carrying the COVID-19 virus and to unknowingly or inadvertently spread it to someone else.
And that person could be very sick and they could even die. I get that. That’s how viruses work. That is how they work. But we’ve never mandated vaccines to the point that we were separating people from each other from going to restaurants or theaters or gyms because they are other than, and that’s what is not okay.
And I don’t have an answer for what we do. With a person who isn’t vaccinated being in a public space and other people feeling uncomfortable about that. I don’t have an answer for what we do about that. But what I do know is this never before in our history has personal private medical information, like whether or not you’re vaccinated been something that we’ve been talking about publicly, like it’s giving away personal private medical information.
To have to show that your back’s inated against something or to have to prove that you’re not vaccinated against something either way that is a violation of your medical privacy. It’s none of anybody’s business, whether or not you’re vaccinated, it’s just not. And so I hope that you’re hearing that I don’t have all the answers.
I also hope that you’re hearing that I am not anti-vax. I am not anti-vax I will say it again and again, and it doesn’t matter what my stance on vaccines is, what matters is that we cannot guilt people, coerce people, force people, or manipulate people into getting something in their bodies that they cannot take out.
That is irreversible. Once it’s in there. It’s. Whatever the side effects are going to be are going to be, there’s nothing they can do about it. We can’t expect people to take a decision like that lightly, or even to do it for unselfish reasons. We can’t call them selfish. And it is manipulative because if you threaten someone with loss of their community, that’s manipulative.
If you threaten somebody with loss of being able to hang out with their friends, that’s manipulative. If you threaten someone with the loss of their job and potentially the loss of their healthcare that is manipulate. That’s coercion. You can say it’s for the greater good all day long, but ultimately you’re trying to coerce that person into doing what you think they’re supposed to do.
And that’s not okay because that doesn’t respect their sovereignty and autonomy. So I hope you’re hearing my heart in this. I don’t expect that this is a popular opinion. Maybe I’m saying something that you’ve wanted to say all along and you haven’t been able to, and maybe I’m saying something that you think is absolutely batshit crazy either way.
Those are my thoughts about this and this conversation. The vaccines and bodily sovereignty or bodily choice and sovereignty was absolutely related to this podcast episode with Madison. So maybe it’s for the best that I didn’t publish this episode when I was originally intending to last week because this needed to happen.
And for me, it was just it cemented that sovereignty, autonomy and bodily choice. Is so important and we can’t have a trauma healing conversation without talking about those things too.
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