Trauma Coach and intuitive Evelyn Hale and I have a deep and interesting chat about the Divine Masculine and the Divine Feminine. We push through some of the misconceptions about these essences, including how they aren’t about gender roles. Each of us has Divine Masculine and Divine Feminine essences. Our relationships also have these essences. The Divine Masculine is rising up and away from toxic masculinity. The Divine Feminine is awakening throughout the planet and is bringing nurturing, nourishing, healing energy. Part of your trauma-healing journey just might be discovering the Divine Masculine and Divine Feminine within yourself and returning to who you were before the society told you who to be.
Evelyn Hale is a master healer trauma expert, and intuitive with a rich background in psychology and personal transformation. She works with women who have experienced childhood trauma and teaches them how to safely go back inside their bodies and find their own source of peace and wellbeing, which was taken from them early on.
Links
- Follow Evelyn on Instagram
- Work with Evelyn
- Download a Free Trauma-Release Meditation
- Follow @sahdsimone on Instagram
- The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida
- Dear Lover by David Deida
- The Awakened Woman’s Guide to Everlasting Love by Londin Angel Winters
- The Masculine in Relationship by G.S. Youngblood
- My Grandmother’s Hands by Resmaa Menakem
- The Fisher King and the Handless Maiden: Understanding the Wounded Feeling Function in Masculine and Feminine Psychology by Robert A. Johnson
Show Notes
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In this episode, Evelyn Hale and I…- discuss both of our name changes as tangible steps in our healing journeys
- discuss the importance of ceremony to honor life changes and decisions
- share how ceremony is the divine masculine and divine feminine coming together in sacred space
- clarify that divine masculine/divine feminine has nothing to do with gender roles
- distinguish between divine masculine/feminine and toxic masculine/feminine
- share divine masculine and divine feminine characteristics and ways to invite more of each essence into your life
- share excellent resources for continued study of this topic
Transcript
[INTRO MUSIC]LINDSEY: hello, and welcome to episode 19.
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
In this special episode, I am having someone who’s been on the podcast before, but she has since changed her name. So, you know, today’s guest as Shelbi Dubord from episode nine. And this episode, she’s coming back as Evelyn Hale, and we’re talking about the divine masculine, the divine feminine, and her really fascinating, interesting story about her name change. So Evelyn Hale is a master healer trauma expert, and intuitive with a rich background in psychology and personal transformation. She works with women who have experienced childhood trauma and teaches them how to safely go back inside their bodies and find their own source of peace and wellbeing, which it was taken from them early on.So, as I said, in the beginning of the episode, we’re talking about, Evelyn’s really fascinating story with her name change. And I also have undergone a name change, or I’m in the process of undergoing a name change. I have not always been Lindsey Lockett, believe it or not. So we’re sharing our stories as a lot of parallels there, and we’re also discussing the divine masculine, divine feminine. And I just want to clarify that divine masculine and divine feminine has absolutely nothing to do with gender roles. So, but it talking about gender roles, masculine, feminine is triggering subject for you. If that’s a hurdle for you. No worries. Maybe this episode, isn’t the episode for you. That’s totally fine. Maybe it’ll never be for you. Maybe it’s something that you can come back to later on in your journey. So we’re sharing how ceremony is so important since both of us are going through name changes. And we want to honor that with ceremony, we’re talking about ceremony as the divine masculine and the divine feminine coming together in sacred space.
We’re also distinguishing between divine masculine and feminine and toxic masculine and feminine. We’re listing some divine, masculine and feminine characteristics and sharing some excellent resources. If you want to dive into this topic further, this is a really deep topic. There’s all kinds of things that can be covered. Evelyn gives us tons and tons of really amazing resources and books that are going to be listed in the show notes. And I really think you’re gonna enjoy this episode. It’s a, another very different take on trauma healing and work that can be done so without further ado here is episode 19 with Evelyn Hale.
Evelyn, welcome to the podcast. It’s your first time on the podcast as Evelyn, but it’s your second time on the podcast.
EVELYN: I know. It’s so exciting. Thank you for letting me debut Evelyn here.
LINDSEY: You’re welcome. I’m excited. Do you want to share your story about why you changed your name?
EVELYN: Sure. Yeah, so my name, my maiden name is Hale. So I’m going back to my maiden name. I am recently divorced and my former name was Shelby Dubord. So my My first name was something that I never felt super aligned with. So growing up I felt as though my parents never really saw me, never really knew me a lot of, I think a lot of people who have experienced childhood trauma feel that way. Even if you haven’t experienced trauma. I know a lot of people who just don’t identify with their names. So when I was getting to the point in the divorce where you get to say that you’re going to take your maiden name back, I knew that it was going to get to this point where we were going to sign the papers and it was gonna be finalized. And then I was going to be able to go back to my maiden name. I thought, wow, this is an opportunity to actually take a new name for myself to take a first name that actually feels like it fits me.
And the longer version of why Shelby doesn’t feel like it fits is is a long story that relates back to my childhood trauma and some of the ways in which I repressed memories. So basically the first 12 years of my life are not accessible to me. Like I have completely repressed those memories. And my mother told me that on my 12th birthday, I woke up. Got out of bed and I was a completely different person. Like she said that I had a different personality. I spoke differently. I acted differently and. Of course as a child, you can’t recognize those things, but she always told me that I was at like a different person on my 12th birthday. And looking back on the fact that I don’t have any memories before age of 12 and never felt like I really fit in with that name. I’ve had some people some intuitives and some energy healers and people in the spiritual realm who have planted the seed for me, that there’s this possibility that my soul left my body at age 12 because of the trauma and all the things I had experienced and another soul came in and it’s this concept of a walk-in soul.
And I thought it was total bullshit at first, honestly, I was like, that’s so crazy. I believe a lot of things, but that idea to me was like too far out there. So it’s been about a year I think since that idea was introduced to me. And in the process of deciding whether I was going to change my name or not really sat with these facts, the fact that I was completely different personality at age 12, I don’t have any memories at all. The name just doesn’t feel like it fits me. And I feel like I’m at a point where I’m not going to say I’m a walk-in soul. Cause I still don’t know if I believe that, but I do feel like psychologically something changed for me at age 12 and I might never recover those memories, but I know that I am a different person than I was the name doesn’t fit me anymore.
So I decided to give myself a name, Evelyn. Because well, for one, I think it’s really beautiful and I feel like it, it fits my energy and my personality and it means wished for child. So wished-for child to me really embodies what I want for myself. And I feel now I’m my own mother. I feel like I’ve become my own divine feminine and divine masculine. And I am the child that that is wanted by me. It feels very powerful to be able to give myself that gift and to also have it received so well, everyone I’ve told that I’ve renamed myself has been like, Oh yeah, like you’re definitely Evelyn, you definitely seem like Evelyn. And no one has pushed back or had any resistance at all. So there were all of that was just fear in my head. And as soon as I said it out loud, it just clicked into place. And so I’m very thankful that everyone has received it so well.
LINDSEY: Have your parents also received it?
EVELYN: Parents haven’t received it period because my father has passed away. And my mother isn’t a part of my life, which we could have a whole other episode on the motherhood. Oh yeah. But they aren’t parts of my life anymore, but my siblings are cool. My friends are cool. Pretty much everybody in my life is super cool that even my ex is okay. He, he said to me, this feels really true because I feel like with the divorce, Shelby has gone, she’s really gone. And I’m happy to call you Evelyn, because that part of our, like our walk together in this life is over and it’s, it’s really beautiful and we have a really beautiful relationship. So I’m just glad that he could honor that with me.
LINDSEY: That’s stunning. I love that. That he’s honoring that for you. I actually have another friend in real life who is getting a divorce and. She did not want to go back to her maiden name because it didn’t feel like her either. And so she’s actually coming up with a whole new last name for herself. She’s keeping the first name the same, but she’s coming up with a whole new last name for herself. And she’s really started like embodying it. Like she’s was just a whisper at first. And then she told me about it and I changed her name, my phone, even though she’s not even divorced yet. Like I put her new last name and her contact in my phone. And it’s just been such a special thing to watch somebody like, go from do I want to change my name to this is who I am. This is who I was born to be like, fuck yes. I want to change my name. It’s so interesting that you’ve just gone through that process. She’s going through that process and I have also recently experienced a name change.
I haven’t done it legally yet because COVID, I don’t need another reason to go stand in the line at a courthouse. I haven’t taken the legal steps yet, but I have recently gone back to my birth name. So I’ve been in the online world, like food blogging and stuff for over a decade now. And I was always Lindsey Dietz online. My husband’s last name is Dietz and our kid’s last name is Dietz. And I’ve been Lindsey Dietz for, legally, I still am, but I’ve been Lindsay Dietz for 18 years. And this last year It was just like, I’d done so much healing that being Lindsey Dietz anymore, it isn’t bad, but it’s not me. Don’t know what you believe or what others believe about, how we come to be in the bodies that we’re in and the families that were in, but I completely believe that my soul chose who my parents were going to be knowing the hardships and the challenges that I would face, but chose them anyway. And my dad’s last name is Lockett. And so I was born Lindsey Lockett, and I believe that my soul knew that’s who I would be whenever I was born.
The interesting thing is though, is the lock. It isn’t actually my maiden name. Because my mom and biological dad split up when I was a two. And then whenever I was seven, my mom remarried my step-dad and we moved six hours away from my biological father. And we moved to a town. A lot of Texas is like this, especially in small towns, but we moved to a small town in Texas that was super like fundamentalist Christian Southern Baptist was the primary religion that was going on there and really conservative. And it became very quickly apparent that being a child from a divorced home was like stigmatized in the school that I was in. And it was, you were ashamed if your last name was different than your mom’s or for me, I had a stepbrother who was in the same school as me and he had a different last name than me and.
So I experienced a lot of shame around my last name being different. At the same time, my mom had just married this man and had moved me six hours away from my biological father. And I was now being indoctrinated with all of this stuff from the church that we’re talking against a lot of the things that my dad did and his lifestyle. And so I began to believe that these things were sinful and wrong and that my being around them or even being associated with them was going to be bad for me. And at the same time as all of that, I desperately wanted my new stepfather to love and accept me like a real dad. And so when I was in third grade I changed my last name to my stepdad’s last name, but not legally my biological father wouldn’t sign away his rights. And so I, what he wasn’t able to legally adopt me, but like on the first day of school, whenever they were calling the role, they would say my name. And I would say, actually I prefer to be called this. And it was my stepdad’s last name.
And so like in the yearbook in, when I graduated high school, like everyone knew me by my stepdad’s last name. Even though it wasn’t my legal last name. And when I turned 18, we went to the courthouse and I had my name legally changed to my stepdad’s last name. So my real dad’s last name is not actually my maiden name because I had my name changed before I got married and then I got married and I became Lindsey Dietz. So I’m now going back to my original identity and this is who I was meant to be before the world told me otherwise. Like before I knew the stigma of divorce before I moved to this small town, where being from a divorce family was bad before like religion brainwashed me into believing that the things that my real dad did were bad before I tried to make my stepfather, love me by taking his last name.
What I realized for me, it was me taking my stepdad’s last name was like probably the first and one of the biggest fawn responses that I ever had in my life. And for those who don’t know, fawning is one of the four F types. Pete Walker talks about it in his book, complex PTSD and fawning is like you basically change or modify yourself in order to avoid conflict to people please to fit in like whatever. It’s called fawning. So I realized just this year that I’m taking my stepdad’s last name and not being who my soul chose to be whenever it entered this dimension was my first big fond response. Sorry. That was a long story.
EVELYN: Amazing. I love how you’ve had many different names and you’re going back to the original one and that you just know that is right for you. I think we, if not, a lot of people think about it, but if you sit back and you really think, is this, does this name fit me? Is this suitable for me? You’ll either have a yes or no. And hopefully you can do what you need to do to make it be a yes.
LINDSEY: What’s interesting is I use a pendulum to dowse sometimes. Do you use pendulum also? Okay. So I use a pendulum to dowse sometimes. And right around the time that I really decided that I’m going back to Lindsey Lockett, I was using my pendulum for something completely unrelated to my name, but my baseline question for my pendulum is always my name is, and I would say Lindsey Dietz and it would swing back and forth this. Yes. And then I would say something like, my name is Judy and it would circle and make the no, so that was like me establishing the connection with the pendulum and making sure I could work with it and making sure it was giving me accurate results and stuff. And I remember sitting down with my pendulum and I said, my name is Lindsey Dietz.
And it circled in the know. Normally I would do the yes back and forth. And I was like, Oh, I’m identifying someone else now, like I said, my name is Lindsey Lockett and it switched and it went back and forth. And and I’ve tested it out every single time since then. That’s now my new test question is as is to say, I am Lindsey Lockett. And it says, yes. And when I say I am Lindsey Dietz, it says, no.
EVELYN: That is incredible. I do a lot of muscle testing, so it’s the same idea of dousing, but you’re using your body. And I always do, my name is Shelby, who my name is Michael or whatever, and I haven’t done it yet since my name changed. So I’m going to check that out and see if my body is really ready.
LINDSEY: Yeah. Isn’t that crazy?
EVELYN: It’s so cool.
LINDSEY: Yeah, it is really cool. And I think for both the us, people are probably like, that’s a stretch, like what is changing your name has to do with trauma or healing trauma. But I think it has everything to do with it.
EVELYN: Yeah. Getting back to your core identity before all the pain and before your system, abandoned itself before you, you abandoned yourself in the response to the pain.
LINDSEY: Yeah. And that’s not to say that, if you get married and you take your husband’s last name, that’s not a bad thing. Like I’ve loved being Lindsey Dietz. I love being David Dietz’s wife. I still love it, but like I just, the name doesn’t fit me anymore. And it just, changing my name. Changes like my whole life, if you practice or believe in numerology at all, like it changes my whole like life path number and it just changes everything. And now, like going back to Lindsey Lockett, like everything just feels like it aligns so much more now.
EVELYN: I didn’t realize I would change all those other things, numerology and life path number and all of that. Do you plan on having a ceremony for yourself to transition?
LINDSEY: I do. Yeah. I feel like in my heart I’ve already made the transition. It just, it hasn’t been put on paper yet, but yeah, I do feel like I will have that. I don’t know the ceremony that I had when I knew I wasn’t a Christian anymore was I burned my Bible. I don’t think I can burn like my marriage license, but that I wouldn’t want to do that. But yeah I don’t know. Yeah. A ceremony seems appropriate. I just don’t know what that would look like for me yet. Do you have a ceremony planned?
EVELYN: I do. And I’ve had lots of different ceremonies for myself. I feel like ceremonies are so important to transition from one thing to the next, even like super minor things that you wouldn’t think to do ceremonies for, can really help. I think all parts of us come along for the ride. Cause a lot of times we’re just signing a piece of paper and then we’re like, okay, now I’m Lindsey Lockett. And we think that’s that’s it, but there’s so much more to us than the mind. And so like for me some of the ceremonies I’ve done have just been me. Writing out a list of intentions for myself, things that I want to call in things I’m letting go of bringing in some poetry that I love some quotes passages from writings and teachings and then artwork.
And then having it around me, literally like printing it off, having it around me, bringing in some crystals, some candles, some essential oils, all that. Good stuff. And then bringing in like music, like drumming, I have a drum or bringing in the element of fire or water, like there’s literally no end to the way that you can have ceremony for yourself, but it’s just about creating that space. That’s actually a good lead into the whole masculine, feminine conversation that we wanted to have today because the a ceremony space is both masculine in the sense that it’s a container that you set for yourself. You’re like, okay, I’m going to create the time to do this. Seven to 8:00 PM. I’m going to have the ceremony for myself. And then it’s the feminine, which is coming in with the flow, with the music and the feeling and the emotion. And you’re allowing yourself to transition from one state to another.
LINDSEY: Yeah, absolutely. It’s so interesting that’s the second time this week that the word container has come up in the context of the masculine and in separate conversations with people. So I interviewed someone and she he’s actually like working on a book right now. And it’s about collective trauma and just the sort of like collective trauma that has led us up to basically we’re at the crux of civilization right now with things like things are going to have to change or we’re going to die. But she’s still developing the language around all of this. And I remember before I started this podcast for a year before I started it, I didn’t even know I was going to start a podcast, but for about a year, I was just in this very liminal space of, I would have real life conversations or online conversations with people. And like every time I would have a new conversation with somebody, I noticed how I was developing the language that I now speak, which is holistic trauma healing. But a year ago I couldn’t have started a podcast about this and put it out into the world in any kind of way that made sense because I hadn’t developed my language yet.
And so whenever she and I were talking she kept going off on rabbit trails and sometimes what she said didn’t make sense. And she was apologizing, but then also saying how proud she was for showing up authentically, even though she didn’t like have itt altogether and neatly bound and like ready to present to the world. And our conversation ended up lasting two and a half hours. And at the end of it and we talked about the masculine and feminine a lot in the conversation. And at the end of it, I was like, if all I did for you was to be a container for you to have this experience to develop your vocabulary a little bit more, then I’m happy to hold that space for you. And you just said that the ceremony is like the container for them, the feminine to show up and be her like wild hurricane emotional.
EVELYN: Yeah. Yeah. It’s there’s so many like metaphors that want to come through right now. I guess the other one I want to say is like birth. There’s like a birth canal and then there’s the baby, which you could say is spirit, or whatever, but it feels like you’re creating, you got to create the birth canal. You got to create the structure for the fruit to come out of the baby to become out of. And I’m not even saying that in a religious sense, but you have to create some structure for whatever it is that needs to transition from point a to point B for that to actually take place and it needs to be safe. Yeah, it’s it very much is an important part of trauma healing, I believe.
LINDSEY: So let’s dive into divine masculine, divine, feminine. I want to make sure disclaimer, before we get going on this, actually I have two disclaimers. The first is just because we’re saying divine masculine, divine feminine does not mean that we are talking about gender roles. Being divinely feminine has nothing to do with having a vagina or identifying as a woman. Being divinely masculine has nothing to do with having a penis or identifying as a man like divine masculine, divine, feminine are not gender terms. The second disclaimer is that we’re going to be talking about some resources and this episode that, I don’t want to speak for you, so I’ll speak for me. I would not recommend that you dive into this work unless you have done some serious work, leading up to this with regard to healing trauma. Do you have anything you want to say to that?
EVELYN: Just ditto. I echo all of that. I think it will become clear as we start to talk about it, but it’s, to me the like delving into the world of the masculine and the feminine energies is something that you can’t really fully understand until you’ve dipped into the well of your own pain. Otherwise you’re going to have wrong ideas and wrong conceptions about what it actually is. So if you’re already triggered, if you’re already like this is sexist, then you probably should skip this episode.
LINDSEY: Yeah, for sure. And we’re going to talk about a book that you and I both read, actually, my husband and I read it together this summer, or we listened to it on audible. This summer called the way of the superior man by David Deida. And I’ve actually mentioned this book on previous episodes with Megan Buer. And so that book in particular is one that if you are going into that book with a feminist fuck the patriarchy kind of mindset. Then you’re probably not going to get a lot out of that book because you’re reading it through that lens and you’re going to be triggered by some of his language. For example, he says the way you treat your woman and a lot of feminists would probably find that pretty offensive because they hear that and they think. I’m not owned by anybody. I’m not your possession. I’m not your woman on my own person, but again, if you’re reading it through that lens, that’s probably how it’s going to come across.
So to echo what Shelby said would dipping your toe into the masculine, the feminine really does require that you’ve done a lot of the, a lot of self work first. Masculine feminine is self work too, but you really understanding like your own divine masculine and your own divine feminine, and the fact that this exists inside of every single person and some people swing more one way than they do another. For example, in my relationship with David, I’ve typically been in the more masculine role and he’s typically been in a more feminine role. That doesn’t mean that my husband is a feminine. Not that there’s anything wrong with the feminine men, he’s not he’s very much like a stereotypical guy, but. He tends more towards divinely feminine characteristics. So let’s talk about divinely feminine and divinely masculine characteristics outside of gender roles.
EVELYN: Let’s do it also. I just want to quickly, correct. You said Shelby earlier and I feel evelyn has to, she has to assert herself. Yeah. I’m still getting used to it. It’s okay. I was corrected by a client of mine on my own misstep without earlier today. So it’s all good. I’m here for correcting me and do it again if I mess up again. Okay. Yeah I want to quickly just say that. I think in our first. Episode that we did together, episode nine. We talked about hidden programming and how, as we start to do this healing work, we start to see that there’s all this, all these beliefs that we thought were true because of what we were taught and the all the different factors that are at play. So one of the things that I’ve discovered in my own healing work is that I was very doctrinated to believe that I had to be a doer. I had to go out and be the woman who could do everything that a man could do and prove myself. And I was very strongly feminist. Like most of my life I would this is a funny story when I was in Community college. I was taking an English class and we had to, I think it was just like right on anything that we wanted to.
So I wrote this art, this paper on why chivalry is dead and why. Chivalry is like the worst thing ever. And how basically how it’s just any like a man opening the door for you is akin to him, like slapping you in the face and like telling you that you’re horrible or that you’re weak or dumb or stupid or something. And I, I really believed that at age 20, I really believe that was true. That men who opened the door for you, who tried to take care of you, take boxes out of your hand. I thought they were all assholes. And that was part of the hidden programming that I later thankfully was able to release from my psyche and my beliefs, but it was just so programmed into me that I had to prove myself to be equal to a man.
I had to prove that I could do anything. And I had a very better than you kind of attitude. Not only can I do anything a man can do, but I can do it better. And I think a lot of women have that attitude and a lot of women with their partners, boyfriends, husbands, whatever are looking at the man as though he’s w a stupid caveman, if you think of like those commercials where it’s just picking on the guy for like barely being able to keep his socks off the floor, like all of that stuff is just it seems so normal until you look at it and you’re like, wow, this is really fucked up.
LINDSEY: Yeah. It’s that brings to mind whenever I first got married, it’s happened to me even. I’m going, I’ve been married 18 years now and it still happens not nearly as much as it used to, but the idea that it was my job to train my husband the longer we were together, the more I would train him and like how he was supposed to behave, like putting the toilet seat down, picking up after himself, like just this so I don’t know if that seems, that just seems really. Toxically feminine. I don’t know.
EVELYN: Yeah. Even on a base level, it’s just demeaning, it’s demeaning to a human spirit to do that. So I think part of the peeling back of the hidden programs is not just the programs that you developed out of your trauma, but your programs that you developed from society and culture, which make you feel that you need to be a certain type of way or. That other people shouldn’t be a certain type of way. And then you get to the point where you can ask yourself, okay how do I want to be? And who am I at my core? So like the work of David Deida in the way of the superior man it, his premise is actually that most men are masculine and most women are feminine. So if that rubs you the wrong way, then you know, maybe this isn’t the line of exploration for you. And that’s totally fine. It’s not for everybody, but if you’re listening to this and you’re like that may be, that is something that I want to explore, that I invite you to explore it because I think that. If you if you’re a woman and if you identify as a woman and you’re feeling really burnt out and you’re feeling like, Oh my God, I have to do and be all of the things.
And I have to train my partner and I have to slay at work and I have to have my house, clean and immaculate and have the perfect little children. You’re probably way in your masculine. And Hey, if you’re like the 10% of women that are doing that and really happy and fulfilled then cool. But chances are, you’re probably not cool with that. You’re probably burnt out and exhausted, which means that you’re not really aligning with your innate energy, which is most my belief. I’m just gonna put it out there. People can get pissed off about this, but my belief is that most women who identify as women are more feminine and their energy and we don’t want to be doing and being like in this masculine world, we want to just be in the flow and the joy of life.
LINDSEY: Yeah. And I think. I can speak for myself here, but I think a lot of women don’t know what that feels like because of capitalism and patriarchy, expecting us to produce, we measure our worth by our productivity. We’re, like the world doesn’t turn on the access that a man has a 24 hour hormone cycle, but a woman has a 28 to 35 day hormone cycle. And it’s like literally unfair to expect women on a 28 to 35 day cycle to have the same work output as men who are biologically on a 24 hour hormone cycle. And how like capitalism and like competitive consumerism and patriarchy, has told women that they can be and do anything that a man can do.
And they can, we can, we absolutely can not saying that we can’t, but. Eventually, I believe from my own experience that leads to imbalance. If we’re constantly in that doing producing planning, controlling side of ourselves, and we never go into the restful nurturing nourishing. Space time away, like side of ourselves, which is the feminine side. And so we have a world that’s pretty dominated by these masculine traits that they’re divine when they’re balanced with the feminine, but when they’re not balanced, they’re toxic.
EVELYN: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s really problematic and it’s not sustainable for women specifically. For anybody, because even those who identify as primarily masculine, whether you’re a man or you’re someone who identifies as primarily masculine, even not having the presence of the feminine is a detriment to you. I think, but speaking from the perspective of a woman it’s especially problematic because we can’t really fit ourselves into this world without breaking a lot of the rules, the unspoken rules. Like I I left my corporate job after a pretty significant health scare with an autoimmune disease that I’ve been living with for probably, probably a lot longer than this, but I was diagnosed about five years ago and had a flare up with it a couple of years into the diagnosis. And I had to take a leave of absence from my job and I ended up then I ended up getting some help and going back to work, but ultimately all of the struggle with my physical health was making me very aware that I was doing too much. And I think they were things that even most women do, like just average, normal things that we take for granted, like having a a new child and like working, like being a working mom, nobody really bats an eye at that anymore.
You’re like, yeah, like welcome to the 21st century, but it was taking a toll on my body and. I, no matter how much sleep I got it wasn’t enough. And my body had to literally shut down. And so I had to learn to listen to my body because it was not working for me anymore. And that was really my entryway into all of this work that I do now with trauma, which is all body-based, it’s all about. What is your body actually telling you and how can you listen to it better? And how can you let it guide you? But it’s very problematic to try to balance your masculine and your feminine as a woman, because we can’t just quit our jobs and go out into the meadow and pick berries and forage. That’s really not practical. So society is going to have to shift to accept more femininity, more softness if we’re going to heal collectively.
LINDSEY: Yeah. Or, and I’ll probably get comments saying that I’m being privileged here, but, or we have to adjust our lives. And make pretty big life decisions to reorient our lives and our life choices in order to accommodate something that our society currently refuses to accommodate.
EVELYN: Sure. I think both, I think that a lot of women are doing that. I am seeing women in this small niche that we’re speaking about right now, who are embodying more of the feminine who are carving out time to dance and play and paint and be in the flow. But it’s still so such a small segment of women in it. And it is a privilege like if you’re working multiple jobs to make ends meet. I’m not going to tell you to go do a dance practice. Like you’re just getting your basic needs met. So in a way, this is, this does show a certain level of privilege. And that’s why I think it has to come from both angles. It has to come from women who are choosing to do it and role modeling it and showing this is a. A way to balance your energy and then society, like making it easier, making it possible that we aren’t working these fucking 50 hour, even 40 hours. I think 40 hours is still insane. I really do.
LINDSEY: Yeah, for sure.
EVELYN: So yeah we definitely don’t have all the answers. To those of you that are listening. I feel like this is at least from my perspective, this is just one small drop in an ocean of a systemic problem. Mean we could spend the rest of our lives talking about what’s wrong, but I think in terms of coming back to your essence, if you start to really look at your your beliefs about yourself, your beliefs, about where does my worth come from? Is my worth measured by my productivity? Most people, it is like, how much did I get done today? Did I get all things on my list done? And am I showing up as the best? Am I receiving accolades and praise? If not, then I’m not worthy. Like we have to really question whether that’s true. Cause it’s not it’s, your worthiness comes from within, it comes it’s. Oh, saw Sada. Simone, do you follow us out to Simone? He’s an amazing spiritual teacher. You’ll love him. He dances he’s so like he’s like spiritually sassy. Anyway, he and I don’t know if I got the right pronouns, but hopefully someone will comment and tell me whether I got the right pronouns for him. Anyway, he’s he said the other day that your worth is not circumstantial.
So Just by existing, you are worthy. And I loved that. You don’t have to do anything to be worthy. Now of course, if you have a life purpose or you feel like you have a calling and you want to go do it and you want to work a hundred hours a week on it cool, but don’t make that your worth. Don’t make your worth dependent on that.
LINDSEY: Absolutely. So I’m looking at your Instagram feed right now and you have two posts here and one is a list of traits or qualities of the divine masculine. And one is the divine feminine. Is it okay if I read something? Oh, please go ahead. That was your original question. When we got on the phone, wicked changer. It’s fine. That’s great. Okay. Here are traits or qualities of the divine masculine. Certainty plans, linear, structured, protective sun, light yang giving right side of the body. Freedom direction, logical focused. Stable, independent, disciplined, confident, aware, fire, fast and hard.
And here are some characteristics or traits of the divine feminine non-linear creative, nurturing moon, dark yen, receiving left side of the body sharing tender patient surrender empathy, billowing sensual, affection, intuitive. Water slow sensitive uncertainty now and the weather. So that’s a really great list. And again, a man can be in his feminine and a woman can be in her masculine. And what we’re talking about here is healing to the point where we allow space for both and, leaning into the body really is. I think the only place that this can be accessed, like it really is. I don’t know that we can access the divine feminine, the divine masculine. Cognitively, can we, I think that the masculine is in the mind.
Yeah. So it’s, if you’re in your mind, you’re more likely in your masculine, if you’re in your body, you’re more likely in your feminine. So I think it’s safe to say, if you want to have a balance, then you have to be in your body some of the times.
Absolutely. Yeah. That I, you put that perfectly. And so when I look back over my life, just like you, I was raised to do, to work hard to measure my worth by my productivity, to always know how to like make a decision, make up my mind really fast to be a planner, to be really structured and have a routine and to be independent. And of course, discipline goes in with all of that logical and these sort of feminine things like being nurturing and creative and taking my time, being slow, being uncertain about things being patient and tender, like those types of things were not ingrained into me at all. So from the perspective of healing and getting into these two aspects of all of us that we all have. We’re all probably, we’re never going to be a balance of 50 50 of both of these all the time. Like ever it’s like anything else, it’s it flows and it changes. And there’s going to be certain seasons of our lives, where being in our masculine is really what’s going to serve us best at that time, because maybe we’re starting a new business or we’re like taking on a new job or where, having to plan something really big or whatever. So we need to be in our masculine. We need to have that logical, critical thinking. We need to make decisions quickly. We need to like plan and be linear in our thinking and be certain when we make our decisions. And so that’s really going to serve us at that time.
And then there’s other times where we need to flow back towards the feminine, because we need seasons of rest and like time away and space and being in our bodies instead of in our heads. And I feel like again, to go back to the capitalism and patriarchy, what those things do be, and our feminine is not encouraged. Like it’s not encouraged for men or for women. It doesn’t matter how you identify gender wise. Being in the feminine is really not encouraged unless you find like either in your community or.Online, particularly like I’m finding more online than I am in my own community, probably because of COVID right now. But there are just these little tiny niches that are carved out for people who are seeing the value and the feminine and how what the world needs more of right now is divine, feminine energy.
EVELYN: Yeah. It really does. I would challenge the idea that there isn’t any acceptance of the feminine. I just think, I don’t think people really think of the art, our typical behaviors in terms of masculine and feminine. So I think just starting with these traits, which I thank you for reading them, because that was sometimes I forgot that I like write things. But you can just Google, like you can just go on Google and be like traits of the masculine traits of the feminine, but For example, it was coming to mind, was the idea of blowing off steam, like men have this accepted behavior of blowing off steam.
And that, I think a lot of times it ends up being a feminine energy that comes in of drinking beer or yeah. I don’t know nothing else is coming to mind drinking beer. What else? Listening to music, those kinds of things going to concerts. And there’s certainly, I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that, but I think that I would attribute those blowing off steam kind of actions as being more of the feminine. Although some men like to go into the woods and just be silent and, or hunt or whatever, and that is more masculine. So there’s no like clear cut. Okay. Blowing off steam equals feminine. But a lot of the things that we’ve traditionally accepted are actually really feminine. Like another example.
This is a pet peeve of mine is that this is both, this goes for all genders, but when people are really wishy-washy about plans, when people are like, Oh whatever, let’s just be spontaneous. Like, why don’t you just let me know when you’re free. That’s very feminine. That’s and for some people that works, but it’s this idea of Oh, I’m going to be super spontaneous and carefree and lighthearted and not make plans and be structured and have commitment. How does that make the other person feel? There’s no structure for me. I don’t have any walls I’m and for someone like me who has experienced a lot of trauma in my life, I need a lot of safety. I need structure. So if you’re someone who is more of that like wishy washy. You probably won’t identify as wishy washy, but if any of this resonates for you think about the effect of your lack of planning or lack of structure on somebody else’s nervous system.
LINDSEY: No, that’s a great point. Yeah. That’s a really great point. I want to give an example from. My own life with my husband, because he and I have done the way of the suprioer man together. We’ve both done a lot of really deep healing trauma work. And we’re at a place in our relationship where I was feeling a shift to be less in my masculine and more of my feminine. I’ve been experiencing like pain on the right side of my body. And the right side of the body is the masculine side, the left side of the bodies, the feminine side. And the pain is like in my low back and hip pelvis area, which is like a huge indicator for me of some imbalance in energy. And anyway so this last week I I was having a lot of pain in the right side of my body and I was feeling very tired.
And I’ve been working my ass off on this podcast. Like I have been hustling, like I haven’t hustled. I’ve told all of my friends, I’m working harder now than I’ve worked in two years. Like really. I am working so hard, but. Like the pain that I was feeling in my body, it was like, my body was saying slow down. This is too much too soon. We need to slow down. But I kept doing what I do. It was pushing, I kept pushing through I’ve got to get it done. I’ve got to do this. And last week, I just had a moment in my bedroom with my husband and he was like, ready to call it quits for the night and like turn on Netflix. And I was like, I need to be a hurricane for a minute. Like I need to be a hurricane. And I was standing up in front of the bed and he was laying on the bed and I was like walking back and forth and waving my arms and much energy is moving through me right now and I just need to move it out.
And I just was like spewing all of my feelings and all of my life insecurities and all of like my feelings about the podcast and like how I want to do it. But my body is saying slow down and really it all boiled down to my inner child or my ego. Fears that if I step into my feminine that my partner will not step up and step into his masculine to make up for the imbalance, because stepping into my feminine is an intentional choice that I am making to back way off. I’m going to do less. I’m going to produce less. I’m going to let, be way less worried about my schedule. I’m going to be way more free with myself and my time I’m going to carve out space for, dance and movement and meditation, and like connecting with spirit and earth. That’s what that means for me. And I have this fear that if I do that, Things aren’t going to get done. Cause the world still has to go on. Like somebody still has to pay the bills. Somebody still has to take care of the dishes and the laundry and somebody still has to run the errands and but I can’t be that all the time.
It just. I used to be that way all the time. And so I actually told my husband because we have this vocabulary between the two of us now I told him I need to take space away. I need time away from this. It’s too much, too fast, too soon as Remaa Menakim says and my grandmother’s hands Will, can you be a container for me while I do this? Can you be the container and hold me while I like have a hurricane of emotions? And it’s not about falling apart. I wasn’t asking him to let me fall apart. I don’t need to fall apart. I’m fine. I’m not broken, but I needed his like participation as my partner in stepping into that masculine role of be a container. Because when I am in my feminine self, it is like a wild ride. And our toxic masculine society would call it like, I’m super hormonal. I’m super PMSC. Like that’s how they would label it. And it’s no, actually I’m experiencing feelings that everyone experiences, it’s just, I’m letting them come up and out and through instead of stuffing them down and medicating in a way. Yeah, I don’t even, I’m not even asking you a question, I’m just telling you.
EVELYN: That’s my favorite kind of exchange with someone where they just stop. Yeah. Wow. Like how amazing of you that you knew you needed that support and you asked for it because most of the time women are so afraid to ask for that support that they just become resentful and bitter, and you were willing to be that vulnerable like that, to me shows true power, true leadership, true. What is Brene Brown say voluntary vulnerability.
LINDSEY: That’s a beautiful thing to say. Thank you. But again, to go back to the disclaimer that we had at the beginning, if my husband and I had not both done this work, like I would be, and I have been in that space of resentment before, I have resented him before I have resented. I have presented a lot of men before. There’s a lot of patterns in both of our families where this is not modeled, like where the women are expected to do and be all things to all people all the time. And the men get a free pass. Like one very concrete example is in my husband’s family. Every year at Thanksgiving, all of the women in the family prepare all of the food for Thanksgiving, and then everyone sits down and eats. And when the meal is over, all of the women clean up the kitchen together and all of the men go to the living room and watch football that’s a very concrete example of how even on holidays, We are expected to continue to serve and meet people’s needs and make things happen and plan the food and the activities and figure out what to do with the kids. And even it’s like when everybody else gets a day off, we still don’t get a day off.
And I’m not saying that to bitch or complain but that’s the kind of thing where, what if the men cleaned up the kitchen and the women got to go sit down and turn on a sappy hallmark movie. What if that’s what happened? But it does, it has led to a lot of women resenting their partner, their spouse, their dad, their, the men in their family, their male friends, because there is this imbalance of. Masculine, feminine, like it’s off, it’s off. I don’t know.
EVELYN: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I could challenge that and I could play devil’s advocate. I see. Exactly what you’re saying. And I agree with what you’re saying that it is off, but I also feel like a lot of women, I’m not saying you’re this way, but a lot of women will just stay stuck in that resentful place, which you’ve clearly not done. You’ve clearly done your own growth to move past that. But when you stay stuck in that resentful place of He should do the dishes. He should do this and whatever. You’re actually doing a disservice to yourself. Like you’re staying in victim mentality. We talked about that already in the last episode.
And so I think that both sides are equally accountable for changing the overall system. And I always like to go on the record in defense of men and like I even want to talk about the me too movement really quick, because I think that. In our feminist rage that a lot of us women have experienced, especially from, the sixties and onward, we’ve been trying to claim what is rightfully ours, which is equal pay, equal rights. And all of that was so important and necessary. But in the last I’d say decade we have we have made men the enemy. And also, the two things can be true at the same time. Like it can be true that men are assaulting and raping women, but it can also be true that women are holding on to this collective rage, like this decades, old rage that it’s honestly time to let that go.
If we really want to make a shift, we can’t hold onto that collective rage. And I speak as someone who is a survivor of sexual assault. Multiple times. And and I can say that I’ve done my own healing work so that I don’t project that those negative beliefs about men on to all men, because I don’t believe that all men have a desire to control and take from women.
No, I don’t either. And I was using the holiday example is that’s one way where I see how it’s perpetuated and families like this is, it’s a generational trauma, it’s an ancestral trauma to pass this on, but it’s also an ancestral trauma to pass on the, all men are assholes and all men are like rapists and they’re not, And I agree with you. I think in getting caught up in feminism and in getting caught up in the me too movement and everything else, like a lot of really good men have been like made the double because they’re men.
LINDSEY: How can we help people who. Maybe I’ve heard divine masculine defined feminine. Haven’t heard it explained in this much depth, like what can we give them as far as like resources or ideas or ways to work on themselves, get in their own body. Get in touch with their inner child, like figure out who they are before trauma change them and told them who to be before the world told them who to be, whether they’re male or female, like where could we go with that?
EVELYN: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think there’s different entry points. So for the person who is just like cognitively, like mentally trying to wrap their head around all of this okay. Masculine, feminine. And they’re probably wondering, am I more masculine in my more feminine? Like which, which am I, you may want to first start with a Google search. What are the, get those traits? Go to my Instagram account. Look at that post about the traits. Another book recommendation. There’s two books actually there’s a bunch of them, but if you look up the author, Robert H. Johnson, so it makes sure you put the, a Robert Johnson, we maybe we’ll link to it. He’s got a number of books about the archetype of masculine and feminine. He has a very like Jungian approach.
So he talks about myths and symbolism. And it’s a very interesting way of looking at just energy, just, masculine and feminine, but. Even in myths and what do MIS really mean? So that’s one entry point. I think if you’re in that cognitive place of just trying to understand, but if you have a good sense of it and you’re like I’m actually more of a masculine energy and I want to be more in my feminine, if you’re a a woman identified as a woman and you want to be more in your feminine, I recommend the awakened woman’s guide to everlasting love by London angel winters. And that book talks about how to become energetically flexible. And that is really, it’s got practical exercises. It’s really eye opening. It’s definitely it is heteronormative. So I’ll just put that out there as like a disclaimer. But if you’re wanting to be in a partnership with a masculine essence person and you want to be more in your feminine, it definitely applies to that dynamic. Whether you’re whatever gender you are for a masculine person who wants to be more in their masculine, definitely recommend the way of the superior man And the masculine relationship by I think GS Youngblood.
LINDSEY: Yeah. Yup.
EVELYN: Those are probably the three books I would recommend as certain in terms of like how to shift into those energies. But if you’re at the point of just I don’t even know, just start with educating yourself on what are those essential energies like? How do you embody them?
LINDSEY: Yeah, absolutely. And then I think it’s important to point out that if you find yourself identifying with the feminine essence and wanting to be in the feminine essence and your partner is not here yet, like they’re not ready to read these resources, they’re not ready to have these conversations. It’s important that you not sabotage your relationship because they’re not there to. It’s great if your partner can compliment that and balance that out, You can be the divine masculine and the divine feminine for yourself.
EVELYN: Yeah I also Completely agree with you that don’t make your partner, the source of your problems. Like it’s I say that, but I also. I also want to say to you, who’s listening. Like you’re going to do that. You will, I’m telling you not to, but you will because I’ve done that. And I still do that and I am continuing to awaken myself when I do that. It’s just, we’re always catching ourselves falling asleep or just wake up, like I’m just, I fall asleep again, time to wake up. Like the trauma healing journey is a spiritual awakening and we’re always bypassing. And if you say you’re not bypassing, then you’re the worst kind of bypass because you’re fucking lying to yourself, but like we’re always bypassing. So we, we constantly need those reminders to come back to center and remind ourselves that nobody can solve it for you. Your partner could be the most enlightened, amazing person out there and it, and then you would, what you would discover is that you’re still fucking alone. I’m sorry. I’m sorry to be the one to say that, but you, what you will find that you are alone, even when you’re with the most perfect partner in the world. So save yourself some time, cut out the seeking of all these perfect circumstances around you and just do the core work of being okay with being alone. Because when you find out that, Oh, I can sit with myself and be alone. Guess what? You’re not going to feel alone. Yeah.
LINDSEY: Yeah. When your self becomes your favorite person to be with.
EVELYN: Yeah. And you know that you’ve got you no matter what cliff you’re jumping off of today, you know that you’re safe. You know that you’ve got yourself and you will survive whatever landing it is because nobody can guarantee a soft landing. Awesome. Yeah, I think lots of landings are rare, man. But the mind loves to tell us that if only my partner would read this book and if only my partner would go to this retreat and if only my partner would sit and do yoga with me, then all of the things that I need would be met. And then my life would be perfect. Those are all just external reasons that you’re not doing the inner work.
LINDSEY: Yeah. Yeah. What I found with David was. What I thought I wanted was for him to join me and do all of this stuff. That’s what I thought I wanted. But what I really wanted, was for him to do his own thing in his own integrity and give me all the space that I needed to do my thing. That’s what I really needed. It wasn’t, I didn’t need him to come along and do everything that I’m doing because the beauty of our partnership anyway, is in how literal opposite we are. Like that is, that’s the beauty in it. Like I’m the gas, he’s the brakes. It’s, we’re so opposite and everything, and that’s, what’s a lot of clashing in our relationship, but it’s also led to a lot of really profound growth because we’re each helping the other one or not helping, but encouraging and supporting the other one in being the best version of themselves. And and yeah, I am my favorite person to be with. And I think he is his favorite person to be with if I have to be with another human, then that’s who I want to be with only be with him, but I am still my favorite person to be with.
And I am also still working on stepping more into my divine feminine, like even I’ve even noticed ever since winter set in that my normal like winter outfit is, or like uniform is like leggings and a long sleeve shirt or a sweater or a sweatshirt or something like that. That’s what I wear all the time. But in the summertime, I wear a lot of like skirts and crop tops. And I have a rainbow sarong that I wear all the time and I just wear more flowy things and this winter for the first time, because I’ve been evolving more into my feminine. Now I’m in wintertime and I’m missing all of my like flowy clothes and my rainbow sarong and my crop tops, because for war purposes, I’m having to like, Dress and more like layers that are constricting and it does feel constricting to me. And I’m missing that. That spring and summer, like freedom and flow and like new life and birth and fertility and I’m missing it so much. What are some ways that that people. Male or female, if they’re wanting to be more in their feminine, what are some things that they can do to bring in that flow?
EVELYN: Great question. First and foremost is just to be in the body. And that probably sounds so over simplistic and also probably confusing for some people. What does that actually look like? I actually mandate all my clients now to have a daily dance practice. So it’s literally one song, minimum pick any song you want. I don’t care if it’s hip hop, jazz classical. I don’t care what it is. One song you have to move your body, the entire song. So move it in whatever way it feels good. You don’t follow any steps. You’re not watching anything. You’re not doing anything, but moving, just listening and moving and that’s literally a way to be in your body and and it pretty easy way in a very powerful way. And you’ll notice that over time you’re moving emotions, you’re carrying them up into the consciousness. You’re letting them see some air and some daylight, and then they can, you can do what you want with them at that point. But that’s an amazing way to be in your feminine and then, artwork creating, writing. There’s so many ways to be in your feminine, but if you take one thing away, it would be just to dance just to move your body.
LINDSEY: Yeah. That’s really beautiful. I would also add to that too just like slow way down, just like in every aspect of your life that you can slow down, be more I don’t want to say purposeful cause it’s not like people who do things quickly don’t have purpose, but just more, just slower, in, in your work, don’t rush yourself so much. Like when you’re in the shower, don’t make it a quick shower, draw it out a little bit longer and like really feel the water on your skin and really enjoy it, take a shower or a bath, just because even if you don’t need to wash your hair and shave, do it just because it feels good, like any, do anything that feels good and really take your time doing it.
EVELYN: Yup. Literally stopping and smelling the roses, but like people think it’s just a phrase, but it’s not like you actually would just need to get your nose just all the way up in there and take a sniff.
LINDSEY: Yeah, for sure. So what are some ways that if people are wanting to embody more of the masculine essence, what can they do?
EVELYN: Oh my God. Do I need help with that? What can they do? And it’s not like constant productivity. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. To me it’s the ultimate form is meditation stillness. If you can do it in silence, don’t follow a guided meditation for some people, they need that. And I’d say, if you’re going to do nothing or do a guided meditation, then do a guided meditation. If you need to do that, do it. But if you’re really wanting to get to the core stillness of the masculine, then silent meditation is the best way to do it. Do a silent meditation retreat. Now in the middle of the quarantine, I don’t know what is available or accessible, but I have done a day long silent meditation retreat. And it is it’s life-changing, I don’t care who you are. It will change your life. And people say, I can’t, I’m terrible at it. I hear every single excuse in the book, and I’ve also said every single excuse in the book. But meditation is like the ultimate form of therapy.
LINDSEY: Yeah, for sure. Awesome. I don’t know if we need to say anything else. Do you, is there anything you want to add?
EVELYN: No. I will just say that I have a free trauma release meditation that you can download if you’re wanting to get into the body and it is guided. It’s not the silent meditation, but if you’re feeling like I really want to be in my body. And I really don’t know how, and I feel like my body has some things that wants to tell me this is a great way to do it. It’s 20 minutes. You’ll be guided auditorily into your body and you will meet a part of you that needs to tell something to you and then you’ll have an opportunity to make peace with it, to close whatever that chapter or that thing is. And then go about your day. And I recommend doing that daily. You can do that daily for a week. A lot of people have been telling me they’ve had like breakthroughs and as many as four days,
LINDSEY: wow, I’ve done your guided meditation. And I just, I want everyone to know, like Evelyn has the best like soothing, calming SMR voice. Oh my gosh. Ever. It is just so just listening to you, even if you don’t go inward the way that she describes. And even if your self doesn’t tell you anything, just listening to your voice is turns off like the fight flight, busy thoughts. And it’s just Oh, I guess I just want to lay here and listen to this all day. It gives me like the. Like the good feel, good chills on my body. It just it’s really great.
EVELYN: Oh my gosh. Thank you. What an amazing endorsement. I hope it’s not too much though. I have a friend, a really good friend who did a meditation and she sent it to me to listen to and like proof edit and it was like she has that really like sexy, like feminine voice. It was like too sexy. I was like you’re probably gonna need to record this because I’m getting turned on and listening to this. I hope that my voice isn’t that far I’m trying to meditate here. Yeah. It was like distracting.
No, your voice. No, I did not get turned on by your meditation. It was just very like soothing. Just call me like. I have a lot of, I guess the best sort of ASR for me is the like very soft not whispering. I don’t like the whispering ones, but just been very soft, slow speaking. Probably because I don’t speak soft or slow. So that’s probably why my subconscious is drawn to that. But no, it’s a great meditation and I will have links to how to download that, how to work with you, how to follow you on Instagram. Like all of your things in the show notes of this episode, but thank you, Evelyn, for such a lovely conversation too. Okay.
EVELYN: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Lindsay.
LINDSEY: I just love chatting with Evelyn. And even when she disagrees with me or challenges me, like she does it in such a sweet and respectful way. She’s such a special human being. And I highly, highly recommend that you download her trauma release, guided meditation. It’s Mmm. Even if you just like to listen to her voice, it’s just a really soothing meditation. So, links for how to work with Evelyn, as well as all the resources that we mentioned in this episode the books, Evelyn’s website, Evelyn’s coaching programs, all of it is going to be in the show notes. You can find show notes at lindseylockett.com/Podcast. And this is episode 19, and as always, you can find me on Instagram @iamlindseylockett.
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